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Old 11-19-2012, 12:29 AM
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Errors can occasionally tell you something. From watching White Sox games this year it seemed to me that most of the time when they gave someone an error it was well warranted. It's not the end all be all and when being used with guys up the middle should be taken with a grain of salt, but if you have a first baseman with a lot of errors or an outfielder with a lot of errors I would say the vast majority of the time you have a defensive liability on your hands.
But that's the point, errors don't tell you anything that you don't need to verify with your own two eyes. Obviously I can tell you who are good and bad defenders on the Sox because I watch them 140-150 times per year, but I can't do that for the other 29 teams. I can't tell you how many times in the last 50-60 games this past year that a ball would be sharply hit in the direction of 3B that Youkilis would just simply watch go by him becauss he had literally no lateral movement left in his legs. No error, because he didn't come close to making any kind of play, but a ball you would clearly expect a MLB 3B to at least knock down, if not have a shot at. I don't know what Youkilis's fielding percentage was last year for the Sox (again, because, who cares?) but I can tell you he was a crappy 3B for most of the 2nd half.

Originally Posted by TDog View Post
The sad thing is that you beleive that.

Organic statistics aren't prescious, they are natural parts of the game. If your shortstop makes 40 errors, you don't say he cost your teams x-games based on his fielding percentage, but you know that his defensive game needs to be addressed if he is going to continue there. But you watched him play, so you probably already knew that. The fact that organic stats don't tell you that much has people trying to work out exotic formulas to try to tell them more.

If you want to argue that Paul Konerko cost the White Sox x-number of games on defense last season, you have to be able to quantify that with what actually happened. Really, if you can't do the same for everyone on defense on every team, your numbers are invalid. That is the way science works.

If you are going to apply scientific formulas to baseball, the burden to show they match what we see actually happen is on you. Otherwise, your formuas are invalid.
Well, first off, I don't believe I ever noted that I took those calculations as gospel, I only provide the information as a courtesy to other posters in these threads because we have these constant discussions where people **** all over the sabremetric stats but then fail to ever A) bring them up, B) put them in proper context and C) even bother to ****ing understand what they're measuring. For instance, dWAR is not calculated using errors or fielding percentage so yet again, your understanding of the stats you're trying to refute is so pathetically minuscule that anyone who spends 15 seconds on Google is more of an expert on the subject than you, so you're free to believe whatever you want about the big, bad sabrematrician boogeyman lurking out their to ruin all the fun of baseball.

But, and as I believe I have always noted when discussing the subject, even though I don't put a lot of weight, even if dWAR and ZR are calculating using such witchcraft as multiplying and adding things (EGADS, THOSE NERDZ) I can tell from having watched baseball for 20+ years that it is still a more reliable metric than errors and fielding percentage, which is a completely and utterly useless waste of everyone's time, if for no other reason than *******s like Orlando Cabrera can call the official scorer's office and bitch enough to get an error overturned, what more proof needs to be said? If you still put any credence into it, then I just can't help you.

Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Also, those bone fragments in his hand robbed him of a good second half for two seasons. Despite age-related concerns of decline, I expect a better year from Paulie next season if he can swing pain-free all season.
I agree. I don't think Paul ever stopped getting hits and drawing walks throughout his struggles last year, his power was just completely zapped. He finished with a .298 BA and .371 OBP, way over his career norms and very much in line with the previous 2 seasons when he was having legitimate MVP-caliber years, but his slugging percentage was a paltry .486. So, hopefully, he still has the physical capability to play at a high level, he just has to stay healthy, which is, of course, sometimes a bit of a scary proposition when you're banking on the health of a 37-year-old guy.

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