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  #91  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:44 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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JDM:

Well thought out post. My only comment is that ownership has remained the same today as during those periods when decisions made crippled the franchise or their chances of winning. Until ownership changes I suspect there is going to be a portion of the fan base (how many I don't know) that will not 'forgive and forget...' and I'm certainly not going to tell them they are wrong for doing so.

Many Sox fans hold the team to be one of the most important and special parts of their lives, they personally felt betrayed over collusion, the threat to move to Florida, SportsVision, the 94 labor impasse and the White Flag Trade.

For better or worse Sox fans have long memories and of course the way to make them forget about those things is win...easier said than done though.

Lip
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  #92  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
JDM:

Well thought out post. My only comment is that ownership has remained the same today as during those periods when decisions made crippled the franchise or their chances of winning. Until ownership changes I suspect there is going to be a portion of the fan base (how many I don't know) that will not 'forgive and forget...' and I'm certainly not going to tell them they are wrong for doing so.

Many Sox fans hold the team to be one of the most important and special parts of their lives, they personally felt betrayed over collusion, the threat to move to Florida, SportsVision, the 94 labor impasse and the White Flag Trade.

For better or worse Sox fans have long memories and of course the way to make them forget about those things is win...easier said than done though.

Lip
You make it sound like the current ownership group has been the worst in Sox history, when in fact it's been the most successful in any of our lifetimes. It's certainly not the case that all problems started when they took over. There have been plenty of moves explored and bad trades made by other owners. Even the sainted Bill Veeck.
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  #93  
Old 10-03-2012, 03:51 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
JDM:

Well thought out post. My only comment is that ownership has remained the same today as during those periods when decisions made crippled the franchise or their chances of winning. Until ownership changes I suspect there is going to be a portion of the fan base (how many I don't know) that will not 'forgive and forget...' and I'm certainly not going to tell them they are wrong for doing so.

Many Sox fans hold the team to be one of the most important and special parts of their lives, they personally felt betrayed over collusion, the threat to move to Florida, SportsVision, the 94 labor impasse and the White Flag Trade.

For better or worse Sox fans have long memories and of course the way to make them forget about those things is win...easier said than done though.


Lip
The most recent thing you mentioned happened 15 years ago. I seriously doubt there any more than a handful of fans who care about or even remember any of the things you mentioned. They have little if any better on the franchise today.
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  #94  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:08 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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You make it sound like the current ownership group has been the worst in Sox history, when in fact it's been the most successful in any of our lifetimes. It's certainly not the case that all problems started when they took over. There have been plenty of moves explored and bad trades made by other owners. Even the sainted Bill Veeck.
50-50 on current owners, we have a World Series Championship under them and some division titles but they alienated so many of us with so many bad decisions down through the years.
Bill Veeck was no saint in my book, he traded away a bunch of future all-stars after the 59 season, gave us the ugliest uniforms ever and Disco Demolition night. I will give him credit for saving the Sox from moving to Seattle
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  #95  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:13 PM
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I will give him credit for saving the Sox from moving to Seattle
And then wanted to move them to Denver, or at least sell them to a guy who would have moved them to Denver.
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  #96  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:14 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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And then wanted to move them to Denver, or at least sell them to a guy who would have moved them to Denver.
Like I said, he was no saint.
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  #97  
Old 10-03-2012, 04:14 PM
jdm2662 jdm2662 is online now
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
You make it sound like the current ownership group has been the worst in Sox history, when in fact it's been the most successful in any of our lifetimes. It's certainly not the case that all problems started when they took over. There have been plenty of moves explored and bad trades made by other owners. Even the sainted Bill Veeck.
The thing is, I wasn't really calling out Lip at all. He just points them out because, well, he knows the history of the White Sox better than anyone around these parts. There are plenty of other people on this board and everywhere else who I was referring to. The strike, which I was very upset about, happened 17 years ago. I don't even talk about it anymore. I was still in high school, and pretty much forgotten those days period.

In fact, when I first came here, Lip despised JR with a passion. I don't see quite the hatred anymore. I think he has acknowledged both the good and bad things during his tenure. Which, in a 30+ year tenure, there are going to be positives and negatives.

I don't even think the team is ran the same way as it was when the regime took over. I don't see JR on TV anymore except for the occasional interview. I've seen Einhorn on TV twice since the strike. Once was during the World Series parade. The other was an interview he did with NFL Films that had nothing to do with the White Sox.

To me, the Sox have using a similar model in the past ten or so years. This is what needs to be focused on. We have seen the model they current have can give you some success, but not long term success. How to fix it? Well, luckily, it's not my job to do so.
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  #98  
Old 10-03-2012, 05:26 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Nellie... wasn't calling them out or JDM, I thought he had a good post... simply saying that I think there is a portion of the fan base that will not forget nor forgive the events that happened as long as they are alive.

I think to act like that doesn't exist is being unrealistic.

In fact... JR has done a lot of good things for this franchise, it's also a fact that regardless of when it happened, be it ten days, 10 years or 30 years ago, he's also done some things that have caused irreparable harm to the franchise. That's a matter of the historical record not one man's opinion.

When the time comes it will be interesting to see how he is portrayed in the media and what happens to the franchise moving forward.

JDM is also correct in that my personal feelings towards JR have changed. Winning a World Series does that, finally spending money to try to bring a winner does that.

One other historical point, the Veeck - Marvin Davis (Denver) connection never really got off the ground. I think that was Bill just putting that out to see what might happen.

It was basically Seattle period (in 75) or selling to DeBartolo (80) who was going to keep the franchise in Chicago. New Orleans was never really an option due to facilities. I stood on the floor of the uncompleted Superdome in 74 and was told about the possibility for baseball but if you thought the Kingdome was a dreary place to play, you never saw the Superdome in a baseball configuration.

In my opinion some of the Sox moving talk in the 70's was overblown.

And the record also shows that Allan "Bud" Selig was the owner most trying to screw over the Sox and their fans in that time period...not Veeck, Davis, DeBartolo or anybody else.

Lip

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 10-03-2012 at 05:47 PM.
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  #99  
Old 10-03-2012, 05:38 PM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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Nell. You're right Bill Veeck was no saint but there was one quality he did have, he got along with most people, especially the news media. I was at the press conference in the Bards Room at the Old Comiskey Park when Veeck announced that Don Kessinger was going to be the new manager of the White Sox. You could see how much the newspaper writers were in awe of Veeck. Frankly it mystefied me as to what they saw in him. I thought his second ownership of the White Sox was a flop. I couldn't believe it when he was voted into the BB HOF.
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  #100  
Old 10-03-2012, 05:44 PM
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Nell. You're right Bill Veeck was no saint but there was one quality he did have, he got along with most people, especially the news media. I was at the press conference in the Bards Room at the Old Comiskey Park when Veeck announced that Don Kessinger was going to be the new manager of the White Sox. You could see how much the newspaper writers were in awe of Veeck. Frankly it mystefied me as to what they saw in him. I thought his second ownership of the White Sox was a flop. I couldn't believe it when he was voted into the BB HOF.
If you want to read a good baseball book read "Baseball's Greatest Maverick" by Paul Dickson, it is a well balanced & researched book about Veeck and I think it would give you a better idea why he is in the HOF. The man was a pioneer in race relations, marketing, financing, customer relations, etc.
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  #101  
Old 10-03-2012, 05:44 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Nell. You're right Bill Veeck was no saint but there was one quality he did have, he got along with most people, especially the news media. I was at the press conference in the Bards Room at the Old Comiskey Park when Veeck announced that Don Kessinger was going to be the new manager of the White Sox. You could see how much the newspaper writers were in awe of Veeck. Frankly it mystefied me as to what they saw in him. I thought his second ownership of the White Sox was a flop. I couldn't believe it when he was voted into the BB HOF.
I remember him moaning back in the 70s when neither team was the city's darlings about the Cubs getting more press coverage.
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  #102  
Old 10-03-2012, 05:52 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Bill would take a ruler to the newspaper and if he felt the Sox weren't getting fair coverage, he'd call the publisher that is a fact according to Roland.

Veeck also tried to warn baseball years before the Messersmith decision that what they were doing was unconstitutional and eventually would not stand up in court and that they needed to modify some things while they still had the "whip hand"...he (like in many cases Charley Finley) was ignored.

Time showed Bill was absolutely correct.

My thoughts on Bill agree with Rich Lindberg. He was a fraud. But he was "our" fraud and the only person who stepped up when this team had bags packed for Seattle. That excuses a multitude of his sins in my book.

Lip
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  #103  
Old 10-04-2012, 12:13 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Heard from Ed Sherman today. He also has thoughts on the Sox attendance issues and has allowed me to re-post his comments. He said he'd get them to me later in the day.

He also said that he's told Brooks about some of them already.

Lip
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  #104  
Old 10-04-2012, 09:19 PM
tony1972 tony1972 is offline
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I like the current ownership. At least they listen to the fans and make changes.

(1) Renovating the Upper Deck
(2) Always trying for players to help in a pennant push
(3) Building Bacardi at the Park

A few things the Sox could change...

(1) Limiting Upper Deck ticket holders to the Upper Deck. I've been to many ballparks and the Sox are the only team I know that does this. Of course..if you buy a ticket for the Upper Deck..you should not be able to sit in the lower deck. However..there is no reason you should not be able to access the concourse of the Lower Deck. To me..this would be like shutting off the streets of the Gold Coast to anyone who does not live there. If you don't live in the Gold Coast..you have no right to enter one of the homes there..but you certainly have the right to see the neighborhood. That is how a lot of fans feel about the Upper Deck policy. The haves and have nots. Same thing goes for the private parties on the fan deck. I bought a friend to his first Sox game..we were not allowed to enter Fundamentals or the Fan Deck (private party). He asks me "maybe they should put signs for areas we can go to?". It left a potential newcomer to Sox future Sox games with a bad taste in his mouth. How much money did the Sox make with closing off the fan deck for a private party..but how many fans may not go back because they were restricted to yet another area of the ballpark?

One of the nice advantages the Cell always had over Wrigley was the spaciousness and the fact you could wander around the park and see different areas. That's what I always loved most about going to Sox games. Even Cubs fans used to tell me this. However..each year..it seems another area that was open to all fans has now been closed off for a small group. I can say it has decreased the amount of games I attend each year. Why are the Sox removing an advantage they once had over Wrigley?
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  #105  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:18 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Ed Sherman weighs in on the Sox attendance issues:

"Regarding attendance. The Sox simply have not been an exciting team to watch. They hit a solo homer every now and then, but it is a momentary blip. Again, that stat: 67 games where they score three runs or less. That's not exciting baseball.

Who was their last high-average hitter at the top of the order? Who was their last guy to contend for the batting crown?

And who was their last true superstar player?

With the exception of Konerko in 2010, who still flew way under the radar, the Sox haven't had a superstar since Frank Thomas and even that lasted only a few years before he turned off the fans. It would be nice to get a Mike Trout in here one of these days.

Only one playoff appearance since 2005. Only 1 playoff victory. That says it all. Forget about the Cubs. It's all about that ballpark. You need to win consistently to attract fans. The Sox haven't done that. Even when they contended this year, I don't think fans felt they could pull it off.

And one more thing regarding attendance, the traffic, especially during the week, is killing them. I live in the Northern burbs, and it could take 90 minutes-2 hours to get to the Cell. The traffic is too much. As a result, I mainly go to the games on the weekends. Other North Side Sox fans (yes, we exist) have the same lament. I've told Brooks Boyer that is a major problem. Not sure the Sox can do anything about that."

Lip
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