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  #31  
Old 10-17-2012, 08:10 PM
ChicagoG19 ChicagoG19 is offline
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Originally Posted by hawkjt View Post
Who is grossly overpaid,based on 2012 performance,outside of the injured Danks?

Rios is probably underpaid,as the best all around rightfielder in the league this year.
Dunn at DH? Probably the most productive DH in the league,by far.

PK? ....maybe, but his first two months before injury carried the team...and he still hit .300,despite concussion,wrist injury,back injury ect.

I think when a team is in first place for 117 days, and finish 3 games back,they had to have performances that are worth good salaries.
The Tigers had a payroll that was probably 40 million higher for 3 more wins....did they get value?
Yes, because they are in the playoffs and we are not.
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  #32  
Old 10-17-2012, 08:13 PM
ChicagoG19 ChicagoG19 is offline
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Originally Posted by 24thStFan View Post
According to the USA Today 2012 MLB salaries database, the White Sox ranked 11th in total payroll. By comparison, the highest ranked club, not surprisingly the Yankees, had a payroll over 101 million dollars higher!

I've been a Sox fan for 58 years and can remember my dad telling me that the Sox would never win anything because they were "cheap." I think this perception continues even today, which may partially explain the attendance issue. I KNOW that in the recent past, the Sox have opened up the purse strings a little, but I still contend that the average fan sees the organization as "cheap."

If the Sox want to REALLY want to make a statement to the fans, spend some money and sign our own and some other big name free agents. We need to compete with the Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox, Angels, Tigers in terms of payroll.

This is Chicago, we should have a big market mentality and be able to attract big name players. It's time to put up the money and show the fans that we're not going to concede the central division to freaking Detroit.
Unfortunately it goes back to the chicken and egg argument. The Sox will spend money fans show up and fans claim they will show up when the team spends money. It is my opinion that the Sox held up their end of the bargain. Jerry started to spend the cash when Sox were drawing nearly 3 million in 2006.
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  #33  
Old 10-17-2012, 08:40 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChicagoG19 View Post
Unfortunately it goes back to the chicken and egg argument. The Sox will spend money fans show up and fans claim they will show up when the team spends money. It is my opinion that the Sox held up their end of the bargain. Jerry started to spend the cash when Sox were drawing nearly 3 million in 2006.
I totally disagree with this statement. Fans don't show up because of the Sox payroll, they show up because of the performance of the team on the field. There is a difference. Look at 2011. High payroll, but do you really think Sox fans were supposed to show up after the team totally stunk up the place that season?

Sure the Sox opened up the purse strings on the major league payroll, but they've also had 4 straight disappointing seasons and 6 disappointing seasons in the last 7. That's why attendance has declined every year, not because the payroll is $X million - it's because the performance on the field has caused the Sox attendance and season ticket number bleed from their highs in 2006 to their status today.

I really, really hope people in Sox management/ownership understands this difference. If they seriously think the way things work is that they throw money at certain players and then fans have to "hold up their end of the deal" even if the team flops, then I don't see much hope in the situation improving any time soon. Just spending money on players like Adam Dunn won't help if the team falls apart during the pennant stretch each year.

In the end, it's not only about spending money on veterans for the major league payroll. Sox management needs to succeed in putting together a team that can go up against the big boys in the AL for more that 1 year. Heck, how about just putting up a team that can string together at least some titles in the weaker AL Central more than once every 5 years or so?

If the current Sox management can't pull of that task, then maybe there needs to be changes in management.

One last thing about payroll - yes, JR ponied up money for the MLB payroll in recent years. That's good because it's often a key component for a competitive team. But how much has Sox ownership invested in scouting, player development, etc. over the last 10 years? I really don't know much about what they're doing with the minor league system, but I can plainly see that it's not working in terms of giving this team enough depth to be a pennant contender.

If Sox management really has questions about why attendance is declining, I hope they're looking no further than the mirror.
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  #34  
Old 10-18-2012, 07:22 AM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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Originally Posted by ChicagoG19 View Post
Unfortunately it goes back to the chicken and egg argument. The Sox will spend money fans show up and fans claim they will show up when the team spends money. It is my opinion that the Sox held up their end of the bargain. Jerry started to spend the cash when Sox were drawing nearly 3 million in 2006.
Absolutely not. Sox fans show up if the team is winning, not because they throw around money on bad contracts like Peavy, Dunn, Rios, etc
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  #35  
Old 10-18-2012, 08:15 AM
asindc asindc is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
Been a huge Kenny supporter since he took the job.

But those numbers there are very close to Jim Hendry material.
Not even close. Thornton is grossly overpaid, but that's it. John Danks is overpaid, but he would have gotten that deal from several different teams, so it reflects the market. So do the rest of the contracts.
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  #36  
Old 10-18-2012, 10:32 AM
socko82 socko82 is offline
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Originally Posted by amsteel View Post
Like others, I'm interested in how Viciedo's arbitration goes since he's the only one on that list with any real leverage. I certainly hope they keep him.
According to Scott Merkin, Viciedo has 1.123 years of Major League service time and is not arbitration eligible until after the 2014 season so unless he plans on holding out he has zero leverage. He's not getting a raise to 6 million per.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...nt_id=39750752
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  #37  
Old 10-18-2012, 11:44 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Gonzo mentioned this today in a column:

"Contrary to an internet report, the Sox have committed $65.25 million to seven players for 2013 (Paul Konerko will earn $6.5 million in 2013, plus $1 million annually from 2014-20)."

Lip
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  #38  
Old 10-18-2012, 01:55 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Gonzo mentioned this today in a column:

"Contrary to an internet report, the Sox have committed $65.25 million to seven players for 2013 (Paul Konerko will earn $6.5 million in 2013, plus $1 million annually from 2014-20)."

Lip
I didn't realize Konerko's contract was deferred. Also, that number is exactly what Gonzo says, the dollars committed to those players signed for next season. It does not take into account buyouts for Peavy ($4 million), Youkilis ($1 milion), and Myers ($3 million). It also does not factor in contracts for arbitration-eligible players such as Humber, Beckham and De Aza (I suspect Humber will be released, however); I also am not sure who, if else, is arbitration-eligible.
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  #39  
Old 10-18-2012, 02:42 PM
24thStFan 24thStFan is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
I totally disagree with this statement. Fans don't show up because of the Sox payroll, they show up because of the performance of the team on the field. There is a difference. Look at 2011. High payroll, but do you really think Sox fans were supposed to show up after the team totally stunk up the place that season?

Sure the Sox opened up the purse strings on the major league payroll, but they've also had 4 straight disappointing seasons and 6 disappointing seasons in the last 7. That's why attendance has declined every year, not because the payroll is $X million - it's because the performance on the field has caused the Sox attendance and season ticket number bleed from their highs in 2006 to their status today.

I really, really hope people in Sox management/ownership understands this difference. If they seriously think the way things work is that they throw money at certain players and then fans have to "hold up their end of the deal" even if the team flops, then I don't see much hope in the situation improving any time soon. Just spending money on players like Adam Dunn won't help if the team falls apart during the pennant stretch each year.

In the end, it's not only about spending money on veterans for the major league payroll. Sox management needs to succeed in putting together a team that can go up against the big boys in the AL for more that 1 year. Heck, how about just putting up a team that can string together at least some titles in the weaker AL Central more than once every 5 years or so?

If the current Sox management can't pull of that task, then maybe there needs to be changes in management.
I agree that performance on the field matters. And I know that, since the world championship, the Sox have been one of the top five paying MLB teams four times ('06, '07, '08, and '11).

However, I still believe there is a perception among "general" fans that the Sox management won't spend the dough to compete with the "big boys" and sign some really outstanding players. It's my opinion that this perception also impacts attendance.
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  #40  
Old 10-19-2012, 01:22 PM
soxfanreggie soxfanreggie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkjt View Post
Who is grossly overpaid,based on 2012 performance,outside of the injured Danks?

Rios is probably underpaid,as the best all around rightfielder in the league this year.
Dunn at DH? Probably the most productive DH in the league,by far.

PK? ....maybe, but his first two months before injury carried the team...and he still hit .300,despite concussion,wrist injury,back injury ect.

I think when a team is in first place for 117 days, and finish 3 games back,they had to have performances that are worth good salaries.
The Tigers had a payroll that was probably 40 million higher for 3 more wins....did they get value?
1.) For how much he's getting paid, I still think Dunn is overpaid. Yes, he was a productive power hitter, but I still wouldn't pay $15 million for him.

2.) If they win the World Series, then yes it was worth it. They're four wins away from being there.
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  #41  
Old 11-01-2012, 10:32 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Updated White Sox 2013 Payroll as of 11/1/12 (source: Cot's)

Guaranteed players:
------------------
Danks, John - SP - $15,750,000 ($1.5 bonus/yr) - 4 yrs left (partial NTC)
Dunn, Adam - DH/1B - $15,000,000 - 2yrs left
Peavy, Jake - SP - $14,500,000 - 2yrs left with conditional option + 2012 buyout($1M each in 2016-19)
Rios, Alex - RF/CF - $12,500,000 - 2yrs + TmOpt left (partial NTC)
Konerko, Paul - 1B/DH - $13,500,000 - 2013 FA (10/5 NTC rights)
Floyd, Gavin - SP - $9,500,000 - 2013 FA
Ramirez, Alexei - SS - $7,000,000 - 3yrs + TmOpt left
Thornton, Matt - RP - $5,500.00 - 1yr + TmOpt left
Crain, Jesse - RP - $4,500,000 - 2013 FA
Viciedo, Dayan - LF - $3,750,000 (est. raise from $3,250,00, Boras may get $4M), first arb year likely 2013
Sale, Chris - SP - $775,000 (est. raise from 500K), first arb year 2013
===========================
Total: $102,275,000

Near-minimum players, multiple yrs before arb
---------------------------------------------
Reed, Addison - $675,000 (est. raise from 480K),
Jones, Nate - RP - $625,000 (est. raise from 480K),
Santiago, Hector - $600,000 (est. raise from 480K),
Morel, Brent - 3B - $535,000 (est. raise from 490K),
Flowers, Tyler - C - $535,000 (est. raise from 483K),
Danks, Jordan - OF- minimum ($490,000 in 2013)
Quintana, Jose - P - minimum ($490,000)
Veal, Donald - P - minimum ($490,000)
=============================
Running total: $106,715,000
--------------------

Arbitration eligible:
--------------------
DeAza, Alejandro - CF - Arb1 - $2,500,000 (est. - 2012: $495,000)
Beckham, Gordon - 2B - Arb1 - $2,250,000 (est. - 2012: $520,000)
Humber, Phil - P - Arb1 - $1,750,000 (est. - 2012: $530,000)
Olmedo, Rey - IF - Arb1 - $570,000 (est. - 2012: minimum)
====================
23 players - Running Total: $113,785,000

2013 Options:
---------------
Youkilis, Kevin - 3B - $1,000,000 buyout
Myers, Brett - RP - $3,000,000 buyout
====================
Running Total with Youkilis and Myers buyouts: $117,735,000
--------------------

Free Agents:
------------
Youkilis, Kevin - 3B - 2013 Salary: $12,000,000 (est FA signing salary: $10,000,000)
Liriano, Francisco - SP - 2013 salary: $5,500,000 (est FA signing salary: $9,250,000)
Myers, Brett - RP - 2013 Salary: $12,250,000 (est FA signing salary: $8,500,000)
Pierzynski, A.J. - C - 2013 salary: $6,000,000 (est FA signing salary: $8,000,000)
Hudson, Orlando - IF - 2013 salary: $5,500,000 (est FA signing salary: $2,250,000)
-------------

Current total Payroll: $117,735,000

Payroll with A.J. resigning a team-friendly deal for $7.5M $121,285,000

For reference, the Opening Day payroll for 2012 was: $97,669,500.
Adding prorated partial seasons for Youkilis, Liriano, Hudson and call-ups increases 2012 maximum another $8M or so.

--

The Sox are way above where I thought they'd be.
Something has to give. Gotta wonder if one of Danks, Dunn or Rios is dealt to get down to an expected payroll level.

Last edited by russ99; 11-01-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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  #42  
Old 11-01-2012, 10:54 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Something has to give. Gotta wonder if one of Danks, Dunn or Rios is dealt to get down to an expected payroll level.
It's also very possible that the amount you expected them to spend on payroll was severly underestimated.
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  #43  
Old 11-01-2012, 01:14 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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It's also very possible that the amount you expected them to spend on payroll was severly underestimated.
Possible. But cutting ticket prices and raising payroll $10-15M in the same season ain't Jerry's style.

If it happens, awesome. But until we go into spring training with this group, I wonder if the shoe will drop.
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  #44  
Old 11-01-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Possible. But cutting ticket prices and raising payroll $10-15M in the same season ain't Jerry's style.
Yeah but remember the Sox just got an extra $26 million or so annually from the new Fox TV contract to play with
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  #45  
Old 11-01-2012, 01:27 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Possible. But cutting ticket prices and raising payroll $10-15M in the same season ain't Jerry's style.

If it happens, awesome. But until we go into spring training with this group, I wonder if the shoe will drop.

Not all tic prices are being reduced. The ones that are being increased will be sold and thats sure money in the coffers. Maybe this so called ticket reduction will actually increase revenue. This organization is not stupid when it comes to money.
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