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  #61  
Old 10-27-2012, 02:12 PM
SaltyPretzel SaltyPretzel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I don't disagree with you. I think attendance was very disappointing this year. Why add to an already bad situation? This ownership group has a long history of antipathy or perceived antipathy towards the fan base. So just shut up about low attendace, make nice, and do what you can to get more people into the park. The recent announced decrease in the price of some tickets is a start. There will always be the negative comparison to the team on the north side. They just have a lot more fans than we do locally, and especially nationally. The current ownership contributed to this imbalance. Anyway, to end this little rant, I don't wish to be lectured about attendance anymore. Let it go Sox management.
I like what he said here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,5876592.story
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  #62  
Old 10-27-2012, 02:35 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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In other words more of the "we're Chicago's American League team..." philosophy.

That hasn't worked very well over the past 30 years and I suspect it's not going to work in the future.

The Cubs, in my opinion, ARE your competition Rick...you are both trying to get customers in a difficult economy with a limited amount of money to spend.

I've never understood that philosophy espoused by JR. If I'm a businessman I want to kill my competition, but that's just me.

Lip
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  #63  
Old 10-27-2012, 02:46 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
In other words more of the "we're Chicago's American League team..." philosophy.

That hasn't worked very well over the past 30 years and I suspect it's not going to work in the future.

The Cubs, in my opinion, ARE your competition Rick...you are both trying to get customers in a difficult economy with a limited amount of money to spend.

I've never understood that philosophy espoused by JR. If I'm a businessman I want to kill my competition, but that's just me.

Lip
In terms of the stand point of on field talent, Hahn is right that we are not in direct competition with the Cubs. The GM shouldn't be making moves to one up the Cubs. The whole "We are Chicago's American League Team and not in direct competition with the Cubs" philosophy is a problem in terms of marketing but that's it. If Brooks said that I would be very worried. When Hahn says it, I don't mind it.
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  #64  
Old 10-27-2012, 04:22 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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5187:

It's all part of the same company isn't it? I see your point if it is simply 'on-field' however all this is interrelated.

The Sox need to be taking on the Cubs in all areas, instead their philosophy has been not to compete, in other words keep giving the city to them, and then they wonder in part where all the fans are.

Lip
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  #65  
Old 10-27-2012, 04:41 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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The Sox had the opportunity after 05 and in my opinion did try to take over the city in 06. Well it didnt work out but instead of trying harder they started to back off after that. Now is another opportunity, the cubs should be in disarray for at least a couple years and the Sox should be going all out but they didnt this year and it looks like they wont in the future. They seem to be content taking their profit and watching the value of the team keep increasing. Rather than being hungry for more, they appear to be satisfied with what they already have.
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  #66  
Old 10-27-2012, 07:52 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,4713270.story

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,1710185.story

Lip
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  #67  
Old 10-29-2012, 02:32 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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I'm late to this thread, but here's my reaction:

KW, thanks for 2005. It was a once in a lifetime thrill. I have enjoyed your aggressive style and ability to find hidden gems. However, a change is long overdue. The Sox organization under KW is built to win about 83 games and finish 2nd or 3rd year after year and make a surprise playoff appearance about once every 5 years or so. That's certainly better than being cellar dwellers, but it's not good enough. The farm system is still very low on talent. The emergence of Sale and Reed this year were encouraging, but this has still been a franchise that is overly reliant on using "scrap heap" pick ups and overpaying (salary) for a few veterans like Dunn and Peavy.

Williams used to be pretty decent at making trades that benefit the Sox. But, what was the last trade he made that had a long-term benefit to the competitiveness to this franchise? Unless I'm missing something, I have to go back 5 years to when he acquired Danks, Floyd, and Quentin. Maybe the Santos to Toronto trade will end up being another one....we'll see in a year or two. His trades for Youk and Myers this year were great and at least gave this team a shot this year, but that was stop gap. Neither of those guys are part of the long term picture of this team.

With attendance dropping dramatically over the last 5 years as the Sox string together 4 disappointing seasons in a row and not much internal talent on the horizon, something has to change. The Sox have a great opportunity now to build a stronger following in Chicago while the Cubs await the amazing Theo's multi-year rebuilding plan. If the North Siders ever do get their **** together while the Sox continue with the same mediocre plan, this franchise will really fall off the radar screen in Chicago.

That being said, I don't think that hiring Hahn and moving KW to team President will change much. Same people in charge with the same philosophy of how to build an organization from within. But, that's just my guess. Let's see what Hahn can do to finally make the Sox a perennial playoff team.
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  #68  
Old 10-29-2012, 02:37 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I've never understood that philosophy espoused by JR. If I'm a businessman I want to kill my competition, but that's just me.
Yeah, but isn't JR a self-made multimillionaire? He's probably not scrambling to read business pointers from anonymous posters on the interwebz.
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  #69  
Old 10-29-2012, 05:03 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Yeah, but isn't JR a self-made multimillionaire? He's probably not scrambling to read business pointers from anonymous posters on the interwebz.
While it is true that JR has made a lot money just because you have had success with a certain strategy in one field will mean that that same strategy in a different field. It is pretty clear that marketing the White Sox as "Chicago's American League Team" has failed and they have needlessly ceded a lot of ground to the Cubs which has hurt the White Sox as a brand.
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  #70  
Old 10-29-2012, 05:40 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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5187:

Well said.

------------------------------------------------

By the way Hahn's conference call with selected members of the web media for Tuesday has been cancelled. They are trying to reschedule something for later in the week.

I suspect the Giants sweeping Detroit and starting the time line for free agent declarations has something to do with this.

Lip
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  #71  
Old 10-29-2012, 06:29 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
While it is true that JR has made a lot money just because you have had success with a certain strategy in one field will mean that that same strategy in a different field. It is pretty clear that marketing the White Sox as "Chicago's American League Team" has failed and they have needlessly ceded a lot of ground to the Cubs which has hurt the White Sox as a brand.
I don't think the current ownership had any choice. Veeck marketed the White Sox in his second tenure as the South Side team. The current ownership marketed the White Sox as a Chicago team and in some bad years has done a better job at drawing fans than Veeck did in his best years.

Trying to crush the Cubs as competitors, whatever that means, wouldn't have made the White Sox more popular and probably would have been a marketing disaster. It certainly wouldn't have changed the dynamic of Cubs fans supporting their team at the gate while Sox fans make excuses not to go to the games, even in years when they are contiending.
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  #72  
Old 10-29-2012, 06:55 PM
central44 central44 is offline
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If the Sox want to change their attendance issues, they need to establish a winning culture. Aiming to win 80+ games a year and sneak into the postseason is not the way to inspire a fanbase. Neither is being above average one year and bad the next.

The Cubs own the casual fan market in Chicago. That's just the way it is. Personally, i'm fine with that. I like pulling for the Sox because I wouldn't be content with the mediocrity that the Cubs settle for, and have loved having KW as GM because I know he wants to aim high and win championships every year. He hasn't always made the best moves, but I don't fault him for being ambitious.

I think that most people who follow the Sox feel that same way, and I know that if the Sox can win consistently the fans will get behind this team. It's going to take more than one good year though. It's going to take a string of years like 2010 and 2012, but it's also going to take regular postseason appearances. Whether they act like it or not, the White Sox play in Chicago, a huge market. They should own this division year after year and should never *not* be contending.

Falling apart in 2007 was a disaster for the Sox-undoubtely the worst season they could have had at the worst possible time. They were on the perfect course and gaining a ton of momentum. Now they have to start over and rebuild that momentum and that winning culture. 2012 was a good start, but they can't afford to take a step back in 2013 like they did in 2007, 2009, and 2011.
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  #73  
Old 10-29-2012, 07:39 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Central:

Very true that the Sox enjoy advantages in the Central that the other teams don't.

Why they haven't been able to figure out how to pull off a run and own the division like Cleveland in the 90's and Minnesota in the 00's is the million dollar question.

It's all about winning and making the postseason.

Again the Sox are the only one of the original pre expansion 16 major league franchises to have never made the postseason in back to back years...despite the expanded playoffs since 1969, they haven't done even that.

Lip
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  #74  
Old 10-29-2012, 08:15 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Given their market size in a division with three small markets, I think it is reasonable to expect the Sox should win the division, on average, once every three years or so, or three times in a given 10-year span. Given that, they should advance to the ALCS on average once every six years, and to the World Series once every 12 years. That extrapolates to one World Series championship every 25 years, and so I just don't think that is too unreasonable to expect as a fan.
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  #75  
Old 10-29-2012, 08:35 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Given their market size in a division with three small markets, I think it is reasonable to expect the Sox should win the division, on average, once every three years or so, or three times in a given 10-year span. Given that, they should advance to the ALCS on average once every six years, and to the World Series once every 12 years. That extrapolates to one World Series championship every 25 years, and so I just don't think that is too unreasonable to expect as a fan.
I don't consider the Tigers a small market team, not under Mike Ilitch, anyway. Although I agree that it's not unreasonable to expect playoffs 1 of every 3 years.
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