Sox Trade Possibilities

[TDog]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

Ummm, no. Beckham's a plus defender, but not great. There's a reason he's a second baseman. He was among the worst 3 hitting second baseman in baseball. There's no way he was more valuable than the guy who hit 40 home runs and led the league in walks.

Unless your goal is to win games. Look at the games that were decided by Beckham's successes and failures on both offense and defense and look at where Dunn's successes and failures on both offense and defense. Beckham was far from being the team's MVP, but he contributed more to the team's success than Dunn did.

[Daver]

Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL

There was an article somewhere last week that the Sox were thinking about moving the Tank back to 3B.

Someone please tell me that this is a typo.

[Wedema]

Originally Posted by Daver

Someone please tell me that this is a typo.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...ional-meetings

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by Domeshot17

Nope. You can stomach piss poor offense up the middle if the defense is good, but 3b is an offensive position. Gordon doesn't have the bat to play 2b let alone 3b. He could possibly be the worst offensive 3b in baseball.

No difference. Having an average hitting 3B and Beckham at 2B or an equivalent hitting 2B and beckham at 3rd, is the same result.
Yes, there usually are MORE good hitting 3B than 2B at least in the power sense, but power may not be what the Sox really need. And the fact is that Sox 2B have generally hit better than the 3B anyway....good hitting 3B are harder to find these days.

Someone mentioned Lowrie. He could be had, but he's got incessant injury issues.

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by Tragg

No difference. Having an average hitting 3B and Beckham at 2B or an equivalent hitting 2B and beckham at 3rd, is the same result.
Yes, there usually are MORE good hitting 3B than 2B at least in the power sense, but power may not be what the Sox really need. And the fact is that Sox 2B have generally hit better than the 3B anyway....good hitting 3B are harder to find these days.

Someone mentioned Lowrie. He could be had, but he's got incessant injury issues.

Do you mean Brett Lawrie? I would think he would be tough to get. He would be a good pickup though.

[LITTLE NELL]

Originally Posted by Daver

Someone please tell me that this is a typo.

I was going to post the article but got sidetracked with a phone call but Wedema posted the article . For what it's worth I think it's a bad idea.

[DSpivack]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

Do you mean Brett Lawrie? I would think he would be tough to get. He would be a good pickup though.

Jed Lowrie of the Astros, who played SS last year, not the Blue Jays' 3B Brett Lawrie.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by TDog

Unless your goal is to win games. Look at the games that were decided by Beckham's successes and failures on both offense and defense and look at where Dunn's successes and failures on both offense and defense. Beckham was far from being the team's MVP, but he contributed more to the team's success than Dunn did.

This is just anecdotal drivel. I challenge you to find 1 stat that says Beckham is a more valuable player than Dunn.

I find Beckham more frustrating than Dunn. If you're going to be a really bad hitter, you better do the little things ie. moving runners over, be a good base runner. Beckham does neither of these. He's a plus 2nd baseman. That's great. Plus second baseman are called failed short stops.

I'm not a big fan of Dunn, but there's absolutely no way he brings less value than a guy who probably shouldn't even be an every day player. At the end of the day, 41 home runs and 105 walks don't lie.

[SCCWS]

Originally Posted by DSpivack

Jed Lowrie of the Astros, who played SS last year, not the Blue Jays' 3B Brett Lawrie.

Red Sox dumped him because he was always injured. Lot of shoulder problems. Good hitter when he plays but a very average fielder.

[palehozenychicty]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

This is just anecdotal drivel. I challenge you to find 1 stat that says Beckham is a more valuable player than Dunn.

I find Beckham more frustrating than Dunn. If you're going to be a really bad hitter, you better do the little things ie. moving runners over, be a good base runner. Beckham does neither of these. He's a plus 2nd baseman. That's great. Plus second baseman are called failed short stops.

I'm not a big fan of Dunn, but there's absolutely no way he brings less value than a guy who probably shouldn't even be an every day player. At the end of the day, 41 home runs and 105 walks don't lie.

You can't rationalize Dunn with TDog. According to him, he's keeping this team from a dynasty.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

This is just anecdotal drivel. I challenge you to find 1 stat that says Beckham is a more valuable player than Dunn.

I find Beckham more frustrating than Dunn. If you're going to be a really bad hitter, you better do the little things ie. moving runners over, be a good base runner. Beckham does neither of these. He's a plus 2nd baseman. That's great. Plus second baseman are called failed short stops.

I'm not a big fan of Dunn, but there's absolutely no way he brings less value than a guy who probably shouldn't even be an every day player. At the end of the day, 41 home runs and 105 walks don't lie.

Beckham had a higher batting average with runners in scoring position. He had a higher batting average than Dunn with two outs and runners in scoring position. Late in close games Beckham had a higher batting average than Dunn. It wasn't a good batting average, unless you compare it to Dunn's, whose batting averages in the above situations weren't even close.. Dunn was more vulnerable to late-inning relievers than Beckham was, although that might be weighted against Dunn in that teams were more likely to bring in specialists whose job was to get him out while teams generally did not change pitchers to focus on Beckham.

At the end of the day, Dunn was a black hole offensively. As a third-place hitter, he hurt the White Sox over the course of 2012. If you are relying on his stats to tell you otherwise, you are misinterpreting them. If hitting home runs is pretty much all you do offensively, 41 over six months, doesn't guarantee you are helping your team. No one has ever had a lower batting average while leading the league in walks. In my lifetime, I have never seen a championship team that played most of the year with a No. 3 hitter hitting .204.

And Adam Dunn led the league in unproductive outs.

[Domeshot17]

This idea Gordon wins more games with his glove than Dunn with the bat is pure comedy:

Last year, Beckham's UZR was negative, he was worse than Dan Uggla, and well below his career 3.0 average.

His WAR (which factors in defense) was 0.6
Adam Dunn's war (which is brought DOWN by his defense) is 1.8

There is not 1 stat, SABR or not, that backs that up.

[palehozenychicty]

Originally Posted by Domeshot17

This idea Gordon wins more games with his glove than Dunn with the bat is pure comedy:

Last year, Beckham's UZR was negative, he was worse than Dan Uggla, and well below his career 3.0 average.

His WAR (which factors in defense) was 0.6
Adam Dunn's war (which is brought DOWN by his defense) is 1.8

There is not 1 stat, SABR or not, that backs that up.

Haters are going to hate.

[SI1020]

Originally Posted by Domeshot17

This idea Gordon wins more games with his glove than Dunn with the bat is pure comedy:

Last year, Beckham's UZR was negative, he was worse than Dan Uggla, and well below his career 3.0 average.

His WAR (which factors in defense) was 0.6
Adam Dunn's war (which is brought DOWN by his defense) is 1.8

There is not 1 stat, SABR or not, that backs that up.

In recent months I tried several times and completely failed to start a dialogue on a massive recalculation of WAR by baseball-reference this past spring. It reminded of me of how certain regimes would rewrite history years after the fact. Defensive WAR in particular no longer has any meaning for me. I note on the baseball-reference 2012 White Sox page Adam Dunn has a 1.5 OWAR and a -1.7 DWAR. So maybe in the crazy new methods that comes out to a +1.8. As for TDog I think there are few if any posters here who hang in there and take it the way he does. Regarding Dunn, he is right on as far as I'm concerned.

[Domeshot17]

Originally Posted by SI1020

In recent months I tried several times and completely failed to start a dialogue on a massive recalculation of WAR by baseball-reference this past spring. It reminded of me of how certain regimes would rewrite history years after the fact. Defensive WAR in particular no longer has any meaning for me. I note on the baseball-reference 2012 White Sox page Adam Dunn has a 1.5 OWAR and a -1.7 DWAR. So maybe in the crazy new methods that comes out to a +1.8. As for TDog I think there are few if any posters here who hang in there and take it the way he does. Regarding Dunn, he is right on as far as I'm concerned.

Ultimately, Dunn is better offensive and defensive DH than Beckham is an offensive and defensive 2b. I like Gordon, I think he is better served in a utility role personally, but he is a BAD hitter and an above average defender. He is a top 10 defensive 2b and a bottom 5 offensive 2b.

Yes, obviously Dunn would be better served hitting 6th since he can't keep his average in the 240's anymore. However, you also can't ignore 40 homers and over 90 RBIs.