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  #31  
Old 11-14-2012, 09:09 PM
Boondock Saint Boondock Saint is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalehosePlanet View Post
WSI is sounding a lot like the winter of '07 and '08 again.
Oh come on. They just went to the World Series, and replaced a decent DH with a long time Sox killer who just came off of a .313 season. Nobody's giving up, but let's not pretend that Torii Hunter is going to suck all of a sudden just because.
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  #32  
Old 11-14-2012, 09:30 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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JB:

I don't think anyone is saying this is a "game changer" or "division changer" in any sense of the word. I think most are saying that Hunter is still a good player and will help this lineup and team more than some who think this is basically a 'nothing' signing.

Time will tell who is closer to the truth.

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  #33  
Old 11-14-2012, 10:25 PM
DirtySox DirtySox is offline
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Might be a slight overpay, but Ilitch cares little. Huge upgrade defensively over Delmon Young. Nice signing for Detroit. Now they just need an upgrade for RF. One wonders if they are players for Justin Upton. Depends how the D-Backs view Castellanos I suppose.
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  #34  
Old 11-14-2012, 10:49 PM
PalehosePlanet PalehosePlanet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boondock Saint View Post
Oh come on. They just went to the World Series, and replaced a decent DH with a long time Sox killer who just came off of a .313 season. Nobody's giving up, but let's not pretend that Torii Hunter is going to suck all of a sudden just because.
They were just one year removed from a world series going into '08 and had just acquired Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis. Panic galore at WSI! Same ****, different day. A team w/the 7th best record in the AL sneaking into the world series is not very impressive; sorry, but I'm not worried by the signing of a 38 year old who in my opinion will be very average. I personally would have stuck w/Delmon Young, given their ages and the breakout potential of Young versus the inevitable decline of Hunter.

Also, gauging a player's value strictly by what they did last season, especially at age 37, is asinine. Dombrowski should know better, but hey! what the ****, it's not his money. My guess is Dirks or Boesch will platoon w/Hunter by June 1st. His .313 last season means nothing, it was his last hurrah, an outlier. I'm just relieved that we didn't sign him.
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  #35  
Old 11-15-2012, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by PalehosePlanet View Post
I'm with you JB, there is a good chance Hunter falls off a cliff this year.

As for Victor Martinez, a 34 year old DH/1B after missing a season, is also far from a sure thing.

WSI is sounding a lot like the winter of '07 and '08 again.
Exactly. There are plenty of examples of guys who struggle their first year back after missing all or most of a season. Anyone who is a Sox fan should remember what happened to Frank Thomas. Coming off the injury in '01, he struggled in '02. He still put some numbers up, sure, but he wasn't really Frank Thomas again until '03. Victor Martinez might be good next year, or he might not be. I wouldn't assume Martinez is automatically going to be the .330 hitter he was in '11.

I really, really doubt Hunter is going to duplicate that .389 BABIP he had in 2012. Believe it or not, A.J. Pierzynski had a higher OPS than Hunter this past summer. There are quite a few here who don't want A.J. resigned because they figure there's no chance he'll duplicate that season at his age. It's a legitimate opinion, and I see no reason why the same logic shouldn't be applied to Torii Hunter.
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  #36  
Old 11-15-2012, 12:48 AM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by DirtySox View Post
Might be a slight overpay, but Ilitch cares little. Huge upgrade defensively over Delmon Young. Nice signing for Detroit. Now they just need an upgrade for RF. One wonders if they are players for Justin Upton. Depends how the D-Backs view Castellanos I suppose.
Where is Hunter going to play? I thought he'd be in RF. LF?
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  #37  
Old 11-15-2012, 02:40 AM
Konerko05 Konerko05 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalehosePlanet View Post
They were just one year removed from a world series going into '08 and had just acquired Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis. Panic galore at WSI! Same ****, different day. A team w/the 7th best record in the AL sneaking into the world series is not very impressive; sorry, but I'm not worried by the signing of a 38 year old who in my opinion will be very average. I personally would have stuck w/Delmon Young, given their ages and the breakout potential of Young versus the inevitable decline of Hunter.

Also, gauging a player's value strictly by what they did last season, especially at age 37, is asinine. Dombrowski should know better, but hey! what the ****, it's not his money. My guess is Dirks or Boesch will platoon w/Hunter by June 1st. His .313 last season means nothing, it was his last hurrah, an outlier. I'm just relieved that we didn't sign him.
Ok, Hunter's last four seasons:

.873 OPS
.819 OPS
.765 OPS
.817 OPS

Young's last four seasons:

.733 OPS
.826 OPS
.695 OPS
.707 OPS

I'm not saying it is the greatest signing in the world nor am I panicing that this move puts Detroit out of reach, but you are simply just guessing Hunter is going to fall off dramatically next season. Judging from the last FOUR seasons, it looks like the Tigers improved offensively and defensively in LF.

Last edited by Konerko05; 11-15-2012 at 02:58 AM.
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  #38  
Old 11-15-2012, 03:41 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Am I the only Sox fan not bothered by this move?

Go ahead, Detroit. Sign some more old guys.
You're not, even if you and I may find ourselvelves in the same minority on that point.

I really don't know that spending money will win teams championships. The teams that spent money going into last last season, for the most part, didn't have the seasons fans expected. The Angels finished third in their division, behind a first-place team notorious for not spending money. The Angels' late charge wasn't sparked by the big-money veterans.

Maybe the Tigers spent money wisely in signing Hunter. Time will tell. But what I expect from Hunter is what I expected from the young developing talent the Tigers could be holding back. I don't expect Berry to play as well in the future as he did in 2012, but I don't know that Hunter improves the Tigers as much as the contract would seem to demand. I would be surprised if he has a big offensive season playing for the Tigers. It isn't like he will beg a substantial boost if the Tigers hit him ahead of Cabrera because he was hitting ahead of Pujols last season.

Hunter isn't really any more a "Sox killer" than Delmon Young, who had an awful lot of big hits for hte Tigers in 2012. And Cabrera and Fielder were playing out of their minds offensively. I don't know if Hunter, Cabrera and Fielder will repeat their 2012 levels in 2013.

A couple of winters ago, it was the Red Sox signing Carl Crawford that was supposed to translate into championships.
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  #39  
Old 11-15-2012, 03:55 PM
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Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
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...Cabrera and Fielder were playing out of their minds offensively. I don't know if Hunter, Cabrera and Fielder will repeat their 2012 levels in 2013.
Actually, Cabrera and Fielder were very much in line with their career 162 game averages. They both had very good years, but not surprising compared to their other years. There's no reason to expect any significant drop off from them, because a "regression to the mean" would not be a very long move.
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  #40  
Old 11-15-2012, 03:56 PM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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For the record, Torii Hunter's career numbers against the Sox compared to his career totals are not that impressive. Good, yes, but it's hardly like he plays out of his mind against the Sox.

Sometimes, a player is just good.
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  #41  
Old 11-15-2012, 04:15 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
Actually, Cabrera and Fielder were very much in line with their career 162 game averages. They both had very good years, but not surprising compared to their other years. There's no reason to expect any significant drop off from them, because a "regression to the mean" would not be a very long move.
I'm not referring to "regressikon to the mean." That is for those that believe that past statistics tell you what future statistics will be.

Cabrera has had two straight seasons that should have won him the MVP. He will certainly win this year after Verlander lobbied to rob him of it last year. I don't believe its a matter of Cabrera regressing to his mean. I just don't believe that when he goes out for another season he will have a third straight MVP season.
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  #42  
Old 11-15-2012, 04:35 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Many of those who seem to not think Torii Hunter is very good are some of the same people who think Gordon Beckham is a great player .

They upgrade the offense in a corner OF spot while VASTLY improving the OF defense. Plus, Hunter is an incredible mentor to young players, and has been credited widely with helping Trout, Trumbo and many other young hitters flourish.

Detroit has a small window to go for it all right now, Probably 2 years, but many that window is now Wide Open.

They have 2 of the top 4 or 5 SP in the AL Central, and one of the best 1-2 punches in all of baseball.

They have the best middle of the order in baseball

Now they have a pretty solid defensive OF.

They need to shore up the bullpen, but this is a good team.
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  #43  
Old 11-15-2012, 04:58 PM
palehozenychicty palehozenychicty is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Many of those who seem to not think Torii Hunter is very good are some of the same people who think Gordon Beckham is a great player .

They upgrade the offense in a corner OF spot while VASTLY improving the OF defense. Plus, Hunter is an incredible mentor to young players, and has been credited widely with helping Trout, Trumbo and many other young hitters flourish.

Detroit has a small window to go for it all right now, Probably 2 years, but many that window is now Wide Open.

They have 2 of the top 4 or 5 SP in the AL Central, and one of the best 1-2 punches in all of baseball.

They have the best middle of the order in baseball

Now they have a pretty solid defensive OF.

They need to shore up the bullpen, but this is a good team.
You know that people here overvalue this roster and dismiss anyone outside of it. That's most fan bases, though.

Detroit is a solid team. Their young outfielders also get more time to ease into game experience. That helps with their roster depth.

If the management can somehow improve the Sox lineup, then I'll feel better about our chances. I think our pitching staff is good enough to compete. We have enough depth and the experience gained by the younger arms will pay dividends next season.
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  #44  
Old 11-15-2012, 06:17 PM
AnkleSox AnkleSox is offline
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I predict Torii will have a game winning hit early in the season against the Sox and everyone here will put their collective heads in a noose and lament that this was the signing that will push the Tigers to a World Series victory.

I'm not excluding myself, because who knows how many drinks I will have had.
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  #45  
Old 11-15-2012, 07:25 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
Actually, Cabrera and Fielder were very much in line with their career 162 game averages. They both had very good years, but not surprising compared to their other years. There's no reason to expect any significant drop off from them, because a "regression to the mean" would not be a very long move.
2012 was arguably Cabrera's worst year in Detroit.
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