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  #61  
Old 11-16-2012, 11:30 AM
PalehosePlanet PalehosePlanet is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
The IF defense thing looks pretty overrated now, considering a strength of the Sox was a strong IF defense and that got them a whole 3 wins less than Detroit.

Again, not saying the Tigers don't have their share of problems, but to say they're even with the Sox is crazy. We currently have holes at 2B, 3B, and C. We have major questions at 1B, our everyday DH, and arguably SS and CF, as well.
That's not a good way to measure the importance of IF defense. Who's to say they wouldn't have won 98 games w/a good IF defense? And bad D shows up a lot more than just unearned runs allowed. Had they lost the division to us, their terrible D would have been the reason why.

And, yes, they are still better than us on paper, I'm not arguing that. And maybe our flaws are in areas harder to resolve, but the amount of holes are about equal.
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  #62  
Old 11-16-2012, 11:33 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalehosePlanet View Post
That's not a good way to measure the importance of IF defense. Who's to say they wouldn't have won 98 games w/a good IF defense? And bad D shows up a lot more than just unearned runs allowed. Had they lost the division to us, their terrible D would have been the reason why.
I'm not sure if that's true or not, as our offense was better than there's for most of the season, despite the huge seasons Cabrera and Prince had. IF defense just doesn't really matter that much, especially when 1/2 of your IF can't hit for ****.

And the amount of holes is definitely not equal. If Viciedo doesn't grow, Konerko can't find the fountain of youth, and De Aza's 1 decent season at age 30 turns out to be a fluke, upwards to 2/3 of our lineup can't hit. Our pitching staff has a nice 1-2 punch with Sale and Peavy, though, probably not as good as Detroit's and after that, the rotation is kind of a mess with an injured Danks, inconsistent Floyd, and then god knows who, and the bullpen has some problems, starting with a closer with an ERA close to 5.

At this point, it looks like we're going to need the Tigers to just be terrible for 90% of the season again and pray to god that 85 wins will be enough.
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  #63  
Old 11-16-2012, 12:09 PM
Bob Roarman Bob Roarman is offline
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When it comes to the bullpen I'm more worried about guys like Donnie Veal, Nate Jones and Santiago duplicating or even getting close to the kind of success they had most of this past season. He's a starter, but same goes for Quintana.
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  #64  
Old 11-16-2012, 12:45 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
The IF defense thing looks pretty overrated now, considering a strength of the Sox was a strong IF defense and that got them a whole 3 wins less than Detroit.

Again, not saying the Tigers don't have their share of problems, but to say they're even with the Sox is crazy. We currently have holes at 2B, 3B, and C. We have major questions at 1B, our everyday DH, and arguably SS and CF, as well.
When it comes right down to it, the Tigers are better than the Sox because they have three superstars in their prime -- Cabrera, Verlander and Fielder.

The Tigers, much like the Sox, didn't have a lot of depth this past season. What they did have was three guys to carry them over the finish line those final two or three weeks of September.

I don't think Rick Hahn is going to be able to pull any superstar acquisitions out of his ass this offseason, but hopefully he can build a deeper roster than the one the Sox had in 2012. That would give us a chance to overcome Detroit next summer.
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  #65  
Old 11-16-2012, 01:31 PM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Quote:
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The IF defense thing looks pretty overrated now, considering a strength of the Sox was a strong IF defense and that got them a whole 3 wins less than Detroit.
Baseball is not an offensive sport.
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  #66  
Old 11-16-2012, 01:51 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Adorable
Be amused, but I actually watch baseball, and I know what I'm talking about.

Stats measure what you have done in the past, and don't tell you much when they are taken in isolation. A .313 season is clearly better than a .299 season if the on-base percentages are similar, and overall, batting average is the more important stat for a hitter whose role is to drive in runs. Strong lineups are built so that pitchers have to pitch to the best RBI hitters. Good hitters who walk because they are selective at the plate will have higher batting averages as a result. OPS makes no distinction between a two-out, two-run single and an intentional walk. OPS penalizes hitters for sacrifice flies. You want your 3 and 4 hitters to drive in runs. You want them to hit. You want them to hit for high averages, especially with runners in scoring position. Their on-base percentages are only important in that they are founded in hitting, not being pitched around.

Fielder was clearly a better hitter in 2012 than he was in the last several seasons with the Brewers, and Cabrera, a hitter who hits .420, slugs .720 with two outs and runners in scoring position, has had a season he may not be able to repeat, even if he has a higher OPS.

Even if you don't believe in the concept of clutch hitting, that the averages with runners in scoring position and with two outs and runners in scoring position will resgress to the mean, you aren't expecting Cabrera to hit so exceedingly well in the clutch next year. Cabrera was clutch hitting out of his mind last year.
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  #67  
Old 11-16-2012, 02:06 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by PalehosePlanet View Post
To me the opposite is true for our fan base. Especially here at WSI where the grass is always greener on the other side mentality reigns supreme. If you ever listened to Chris Rongey's show after a loss, or a shaky win, you'd know that ALL of our players suck.
Correction - all of our players suck - UNTIL it's time to get rid of them, THEN the fans think they're all great.
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  #68  
Old 11-16-2012, 08:43 PM
Oblong Oblong is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
As Oblong said, it is that close. I had forgotten he's been there 5 years, not 3, however. But the last 3 years:
2010: .328/.420/.642; 84 XBH
2011: .344/.448/.586; 78 XBH
2012: .330/.393/.606; 84 XBH



Does Dirks get moved to RF, then?
Based on the press conference today it sounds like Hunter will be the RF and so I assume Dirks in LF.

Hunter said he started scouting out teams this summer in case the Angels didn't bring him back and settled on the Tigers. He actually called them up and set up the Tuesday meeting himself. Just so happens they were having their organizational meetings this week so all the people were there already.

It's amazing that in 10 years the Tigers went from begging Craig Paquette to sign to having Torii Hunter chase them down.
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  #69  
Old 11-16-2012, 09:16 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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It's amazing that in 10 years the Tigers went from begging Craig Paquette to sign to having Torii Hunter chase them down.

The answer to everything.

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  #70  
Old 11-16-2012, 09:25 PM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Cabrera's walk numbers really plummeted this year. Obviously Fielder has something to do with it, but still.
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  #71  
Old 11-17-2012, 12:24 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Cabrera's walk numbers really plummeted this year. Obviously Fielder has something to do with it, but still.
The Tigers signed Fielder to hit behind Cabrera so that pitchers wouldn't walk him as often. And Cabrera responded by leading the league in total bases.
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  #72  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:18 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
The IF defense thing looks pretty overrated now, considering a strength of the Sox was a strong IF defense and that got them a whole 3 wins less than Detroit.

Again, not saying the Tigers don't have their share of problems, but to say they're even with the Sox is crazy. We currently have holes at 2B, 3B, and C. We have major questions at 1B, our everyday DH, and arguably SS and CF, as well.
Well, when you have 2 superstars in the infield who play iffy D then, yea, infield D is overrated.
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