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  #31  
Old 11-21-2012, 12:44 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Love / Taylor:

You guys are numbers people...look it up.

Sox were in the top four in the league in 2005 in:

Home Runs
Stolen Bases
Sacrifice Bunts
Sacrifice Flys
Infield Hits.

That my friends is called balance.

They didn't have it in 2006 nor since then.

Nothing to scratch your head about at all....unless of course you've got dandruff!

Nell:

Your list of greatest trades is right on the money. Thome deal doesn't even come close.

Lip
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  #32  
Old 11-21-2012, 01:48 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post

That my friends is called balance.

They didn't have it in 2006 nor since then.

Lip
I don't know, Lip, the way I remember it, the main difference between '06 and '05 was the pitching didn't hold up. Buehrle was clearly worn down and had a poor year, while the bullpen went from lock down mode to beatable, though I do agree the hole in CF was a problem for years. I'm not going to say it was Thome's fault, he did a good job with the Sox. It's not his fault KW wasn't able to plug a decent player in center.
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  #33  
Old 11-21-2012, 02:00 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
Greatest trades in Sox history:
Sox get Nellie Fox from Philadelphia A's for Joe Tipton.
Sox get Billy Pierce from Tigers for Aaron Robinson.
Sox get Paulie from Reds for Mike Cameron.
Sox get Ozzie from Padres for LaMarr Hoyt.
Sox get Shoeless Joe from the Indians for a couple of no names and 31,000 dollars.
Sox get Pete Ward, Hoyt Wilhelm, Ron Hansen and Dave Nicholson for Luis Aparicio and Al Smith.
The Dick Allen trade gets honorable mention because he only spent 3 years with us.
Not a trade but signing Carlton Fisk in 1981 as a free agent was huge.

Thome trade is not even close.
I would add the following trade:

Sox get Jose Valentin and Cal Eldred from the Brewers for Jaime Navarro and John Snyder.
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  #34  
Old 11-21-2012, 02:14 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Love / Taylor:

You guys are numbers people...look it up.

Sox were in the top four in the league in 2005 in:

Home Runs
Stolen Bases
Sacrifice Bunts
Sacrifice Flys
Infield Hits.

That my friends is called balance.

They didn't have it in 2006 nor since then.

Nothing to scratch your head about at all....unless of course you've got dandruff!

Nell:

Your list of greatest trades is right on the money. Thome deal doesn't even come close.

Lip

Lip, you seriously want to argue this?

Thome alone, how did he affect this balance you speak of?

How does plugging in Thome and removing Everett/ Thomas affect anything from the 5 items listed?


The only thing all 3 of them could do from your "balance" list is hit HRs. And Thome could do it better than any of them.

So what's your point?
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  #35  
Old 11-21-2012, 03:49 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
I don't know, Lip, the way I remember it, the main difference between '06 and '05 was the pitching didn't hold up. Buehrle was clearly worn down and had a poor year, while the bullpen went from lock down mode to beatable, though I do agree the hole in CF was a problem for years. I'm not going to say it was Thome's fault, he did a good job with the Sox. It's not his fault KW wasn't able to plug a decent player in center.
Yes, that's understandable, but what about '07?

Rowand wasn't a FA until the end of that season, and having him in CF could have spared us Erstad, Mackowiak and Jerry Owens, much less could have given B.A. a reason to work instead of hang with the honeys and being gifted a roster spot.

And the cash spent on Thome again could have been used to improve the roster.
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  #36  
Old 11-21-2012, 04:42 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Love:

No I seriously don't want to argue this. I provided the numbers, you're a stat guy, it should be obvious to you the number of games the Sox won in 05 with balance, singles, bunt hits, home runs, stolen bases.....it should also be obvious the way they won games (or more to the point didn't win games after July 2006) in 2006.

And yes I agree pitching was part of the issue but that's not what we were talking about was it.

Lip
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  #37  
Old 11-21-2012, 07:09 PM
Corlose 15 Corlose 15 is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Yes, that's understandable, but what about '07?

Rowand wasn't a FA until the end of that season, and having him in CF could have spared us Erstad, Mackowiak and Jerry Owens, much less could have given B.A. a reason to work instead of hang with the honeys and being gifted a roster spot.

And the cash spent on Thome again could have been used to improve the roster.
I've never understood the Rob Mackowiak hate.
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  #38  
Old 11-21-2012, 07:31 PM
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LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Corlose 15 View Post
I've never understood the Rob Mackowiak hate.
I for one did not hate him, I hated Ozzie for trotting him out to CF everyday.
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  #39  
Old 11-21-2012, 07:47 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post

I for one did not hate him, I hated Ozzie for trotting him out to CF everyday.
Bingo. Mackowiak was a great signing for the bench and pinch hitting. Ozzie misused him - and hurt the team's defense and thus the pitching - by putting him in a CF platoon.
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  #40  
Old 11-21-2012, 10:53 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Love:

No I seriously don't want to argue this. I provided the numbers, you're a stat guy, it should be obvious to you the number of games the Sox won in 05 with balance, singles, bunt hits, home runs, stolen bases.....it should also be obvious the way they won games (or more to the point didn't win games after July 2006) in 2006.

And yes I agree pitching was part of the issue but that's not what we were talking about was it.

Lip
So you still can't tell me how Thome vs Thomas/Everett diminished the team balance?
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  #41  
Old 11-21-2012, 11:42 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Love:

Rowand wasn't on the club that's how the 'balance' was destroyed. He was also very popular in the clubhouse and a real gamer....I know that doesn't count for **** because you can't measure it.

The point isn't Thome vs. Thomas / Everett (although Carl was a terrific team leader and clubhouse presence. Not having him around also dramatically changed the culture...again I know it doesn't mean ****, you can't measure it).

It changed team balance because Jim was another home run or nothing middle of the order base clogger. NOT SAYING he didn't have a good year, he did, he had a damn fine season but adding him I think was one to many of THE SAME TYPE OF HITTER in the lineup and having him right in front of Paulie really hurt the Sox options to do different things under Ozzie.

They scored a lot of runs (until the second half) but they also went into a lot of slumps of the nature of scoring a bunch of runs one night, than doing little the next.

The point was Thome vs. Rowand. I don't know if I can address your comment any more than I have...and again I'm not saying a thing against Jim as a person or as a player but he was just like Dye, like Konerko, like Buehrle...great players, but quiet...it wasn't their way to call out a teammate, get in someone's face, make an issue on the field and if it meant getting into something with someone on the other team than so be it.

The 2006 Sox were limited in what they could do to score runs and they were very limited in vocal leadership.

Lip
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  #42  
Old 11-22-2012, 10:06 AM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
That trade was very fair for both teams involved. I wouldn't classify it as a steal for the Sox by any means. It freed-up money and got us a leadoff man who would be productive for two years.
The Carlos Lee trade was great precisely because it freed up money that became Iguchi, Pierzynski, and El Duque. Look at it as those three plus Podsednik in exchange for Carlos Lee, and it is indeed a steal.

If you look at just the immediate consequences of a trade, then the Garcia trade was horrible. It was the extension of Garcia later that season that made it worthwhile.
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  #43  
Old 11-24-2012, 02:53 AM
pudge pudge is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
I don't know, Lip, the way I remember it, the main difference between '06 and '05 was the pitching didn't hold up. Buehrle was clearly worn down and had a poor year, while the bullpen went from lock down mode to beatable, though I do agree the hole in CF was a problem for years. I'm not going to say it was Thome's fault, he did a good job with the Sox. It's not his fault KW wasn't able to plug a decent player in center.
Brian Anderson killed that team. Killed it. I just don't get why you trade for Thome when you won a W.S. with Rowand in CF. I agree with the poster who said Frank and Rowand probably get you back into the playoffs. I just didn't love the trade when it happened. Now, Thome was great to have in '08, but I would have rather been a playoff team in '06.
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  #44  
Old 11-24-2012, 05:19 AM
Bob Roarman Bob Roarman is offline
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Originally Posted by pudge View Post
Brian Anderson killed that team. Killed it. I just don't get why you trade for Thome when you won a W.S. with Rowand in CF. I agree with the poster who said Frank and Rowand probably get you back into the playoffs. I just didn't love the trade when it happened. Now, Thome was great to have in '08, but I would have rather been a playoff team in '06.
Tell me when and how Cliff Pollite and Neal Cotts got back to what they were the previous season and then I'd say that team is a playoff team again with or without Rowand and Thomas. Don't know why people seem to forget about them, they had career seasons of career seasons for middle relief which, luckily for the Sox, happened to fall in the same season and then they both promptly fell off a cliff and out of baseball just a few years later.
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  #45  
Old 11-24-2012, 07:30 AM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
Tell me when and how Cliff Pollite and Neal Cotts got back to what they were the previous season and then I'd say that team is a playoff team again with or without Rowand and Thomas.
Throw Hermanson into that mix also.
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