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  #46  
Old 11-24-2012, 01:26 PM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
Tell me when and how Cliff Pollite and Neal Cotts got back to what they were the previous season and then I'd say that team is a playoff team again with or without Rowand and Thomas. Don't know why people seem to forget about them, they had career seasons of career seasons for middle relief which, luckily for the Sox, happened to fall in the same season and then they both promptly fell off a cliff and out of baseball just a few years later.
Thank you! Pitching, or lack thereof, is the main reason the Sox did not get back to the playoffs in 2006. Buehrle fell off in the second half, and as you mentioned, relievers like Politte and Cotts had career years in 2005. There is no guarantee that standing pat would have led to a repeat. After all, Thomas suffered season-ending injuries in 2004 and 2005. There was no guarantee (there's that word again, but it's true) that he would've been healthy in 2006. We only know this in hindsight. But some people love to live in the Land of If Only.
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  #47  
Old 11-24-2012, 01:40 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
Thank you! Pitching, or lack thereof, is the main reason the Sox did not get back to the playoffs in 2006. Buehrle fell off in the second half, and as you mentioned, relievers like Politte and Cotts had career years in 2005. There is no guarantee that standing pat would have led to a repeat. After all, Thomas suffered season-ending injuries in 2004 and 2005. There was no guarantee (there's that word again, but it's true) that he would've been healthy in 2006. We only know this in hindsight. But some people love to live in the Land of If Only.
It's the biggest reason but not the only one. 2005 has been the only season in the 21st Century that the Sox didn't have that frustrating feast or famine, often one dimensional offense. As for the trade, yes you have to make it, if for no other reason than to keep Konerko. The 2005 team had a 101 ways to beat you, including the lock down bullpen mentioned by Bob Roarman. People are going to play the what if game because a repeat of 05 would have been so satisfying.
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  #48  
Old 11-27-2012, 09:28 AM
nsolo nsolo is offline
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Originally Posted by FielderJones View Post
That was a two-sided trade. The left-handed power was awesome. The hole in center field took six years to fill in.
What he said. Everyone agrees Thome is a great guy and possible future HOFer, but BA always had that deer in the headlights look at every bat, and the rotation of players after him cost us dearly. All Thome brought was his bat with no defense to patch the loss of Rowland.

My opinion on hearing about that trade was "we just ran the table and won the W.S., team chemistry was working, why break things up?". Seven years later, I feel the same.
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  #49  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:06 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
Tell me when and how Cliff Pollite and Neal Cotts got back to what they were the previous season and then I'd say that team is a playoff team again with or without Rowand and Thomas. Don't know why people seem to forget about them, they had career seasons of career seasons for middle relief which, luckily for the Sox, happened to fall in the same season and then they both promptly fell off a cliff and out of baseball just a few years later.
This definitely, but even more so the entire pitching staff regressed from 2005, whether it be that '05 was a career year never to be repeated or just the overall stress from an extra month of play-off baseball. No starter on the '06 team posted an ERA lower than 4 and change; Buehrle's ERA was almost 5. In 2005, the Sox had a middle of the road offense (4.57 RS/G, 9th in the AL) and the best pitching staff (3.61 ERA, 1st in AL and 3.98 RA/G, 3rd in the AL) in the league. In 2006, they had an elite offense (5.36 RS/G, 3rd in AL) but a below average pitching staff (4.90 RA/G, 11th in the AL).

The Thome/Rowand deal clearly improved the Sox's weakness from the previous season. If you want to look at a deal that off-season that is more to blame for the Sox's failings post-'05, I think the Vazquez for Young, Vizcaino, and Hernandez deal would be more up your alley. Vazquez never seemed to be able to tap into his talent and solve the pitching problems in '06. Obviously asking 1 pitcher to make or break a rotation is silly, but Vazquez was acquired and expected to be the ace and he never did. Add the breakdowns of Garcia and Contreras in '07 and it was a recipe for disaster, not to mention the Sox gave up a player who could have potentially replaced BA after he proved himself incapable of being an everyday MLB player.

But, almost as important, the Sox were just unlucky to be in the wrong division. A 90-win team that finishes in 3rd place is very rare. If the now current play-off system had been in place, we'd at least have gotten 1 last crack at Detroit. Who knows?
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  #50  
Old 11-27-2012, 12:28 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post

But, almost as important, the Sox were just unlucky to be in the wrong division. A 90-win team that finishes in 3rd place is very rare. If the now current play-off system had been in place, we'd at least have gotten 1 last crack at Detroit. Who knows?
Very good point. The '06 Sox were flawed but still a very good team. The Twins and Tigers played out of their minds that season. This was especially true in the second half.
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  #51  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:36 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Sox seem to have been "unlucky" for most of their existence. They are still the only original franchise (pre expansion) to have never made the post season in consecutive years.

Luck is part of it but to me, not a very large part.

Lip
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  #52  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:11 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by TommyJohn View Post
Thank you! Pitching, or lack thereof, is the main reason the Sox did not get back to the playoffs in 2006. Buehrle fell off in the second half, and as you mentioned, relievers like Politte and Cotts had career years in 2005. There is no guarantee that standing pat would have led to a repeat. After all, Thomas suffered season-ending injuries in 2004 and 2005. There was no guarantee (there's that word again, but it's true) that he would've been healthy in 2006. We only know this in hindsight. But some people love to live in the Land of If Only.
The manager was the reason we did not get back to the playoffs in 2006.
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  #53  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:15 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
The manager was the reason we did not get back to the playoffs in 2006.
Two critical managerial mistakes:

Using Brandon McCarthy in the pen instead of as a sixth starter to give Buehrle and Contreras more rest;

Playing Mackowiak regularly in CF.

I'm not sure these two mistakes were enough to lose the division, but they did cost the Sox a few games.
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  #54  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:22 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
The manager was the reason we did not get back to the playoffs in 2006.
Ozzie had a 6.44 ERA in the second half? Oh wait, that was Buehrle.

The Sox went 2-13 when Ozzie pitched in the second half? Nope, Javy Vazquez.

Ozzie blew 3 saves in September down the stretch? Bobby Jenks, actually.

I hold no love for Ozzie but are you serious? I guess Ozzie didn't start BA the second game of the year. That's about it. When your starters have a 4.65 ERA it doesn't matter if you have Casey Stengel or Terry Bevington managing, you ain't going nowhere.

EDIT: Playing Mack in center being an exception, but in his defense Anderson was thought to be pretty much a sure thing, at least from what I remember.
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  #55  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:24 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Frater:

I distinctly remember Mackowiak telling Gonzo in a story how upset he was at his poor play in center field but he also told him that when he came to the Sox he was told by both Kenny and Ozzie that he'd be playing some back up 3rd base and the corner outfield spots.

Mack said he didn't even practice that off season on doing any work in center field (and it showed). Mackowiak was a stand up guy who was put in a bad situation.

Lip
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  #56  
Old 11-28-2012, 06:15 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Frater:

I distinctly remember Mackowiak telling Gonzo in a story how upset he was at his poor play in center field but he also told him that when he came to the Sox he was told by both Kenny and Ozzie that he'd be playing some back up 3rd base and the corner outfield spots.

Mack said he didn't even practice that off season on doing any work in center field (and it showed). Mackowiak was a stand up guy who was put in a bad situation.

Lip
It's really a shame, too, because Mackowiak grew up a Sox fan. Stupid, stubborn Ozzie.
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  #57  
Old 11-28-2012, 10:16 AM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
It's really a shame, too, because Mackowiak grew up a Sox fan. Stupid, stubborn Ozzie.
I remember that Big Hurt game fondly, when Mackowiak hit a game-tying HR.
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  #58  
Old 11-28-2012, 01:17 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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It's really a shame, too, because Mackowiak grew up a Sox fan. Stupid, stubborn Ozzie.
When the White Sox signed Mackowiak Rick Hahn was quoted as saying "This guy can really play some center field." I think that Rob Mackowiak in center field idea wasn't Ozzie's alone.

http://www.southsidesox.com/2012/10/...ahn-a-timeline
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  #59  
Old 11-28-2012, 05:56 PM
TommyJohn TommyJohn is offline
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I don't look back fondly on the trade, but I do fondly remember the Sox fan catchphrase for 2006: "Rowand would've had that."
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  #60  
Old 11-28-2012, 07:03 PM
Falstaff Falstaff is offline
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Originally Posted by nsolo View Post
What he said. Everyone agrees Thome is a great guy and possible future HOFer, but BA always had that deer in the headlights look at every bat, and the rotation of players after him cost us dearly. All Thome brought was his bat with no defense to patch the loss of Rowland.

My opinion on hearing about that trade was "we just ran the table and won the W.S., team chemistry was working, why break things up?". Seven years later, I feel the same.
Absolutely! I felt the same way then and I do today. Also that trade which
lost El Duque and brought Viz... ya, that was another head scratcher and many on boards questioned at the time.

I think they placed excess faith in the Brian Anderson machine. IIRC, he had an OK debut but Oz insisted BA bat more for power than average; the
result was neither power nor avg. Will always cherish a certain catch at end of 2008 tho.

Also we really got the best years of Jermaine Dye, he carried the club with his big stick. Till time suddenly caught up. BTW did he ever officially retire?
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