HOF Ballot Announced: Liars, Cheaters, and Scumbags Included

[russ99]

Originally Posted by ComiskeyBrewer

Only one of the three named who sticks out to me is Bagwell.

Bagwell's HR totals from age 23-29(his "peak" years)

15
18
20
39
21
31
43(age 29)

Bagwell's HR totals from age 30 on:

34
42
47
39
31
39
27(age 36)

To me, that's really high for someone in his 30s, who didn't have much power in his 20s. Tradionally, most power hitters have their peak from ages 26-30/31. Bagwell was just the opposite, having his peak years occur basically from age 29-35. That's not natural. Now, the first defense is "well, he had a short porch at Minute Maid Park at the end of his career, that had to help him." Well, if it did, it helped him for away games too, because his splits were almost identical home v away(with the exception of the 2004 season). To me, that's enough proof.

Piazza might have used(i doubt it), but his numbers were highest in his 20s(and consistently high), and started a gradual decline around age 31-32.

I doubt Biggio used, but it is odd that his career high for HRs happened when he was 39, and the only back to back to back 20+ Hr seasons occurred in his age 38/39/40 years. That being said, the guy NEVER hit for more than 26 Hrs, and his OPS had a pretty normal arch as far as his career went. Main point: If Biggio used, he should have gotten his money back.

That's conjecture, and other than playing with Caminiti who's a known roider, there's no evidence that Bagwell juiced.

Don't forget Bagwell played half his career in Houston when they had the Astrodome, which is where homers went to die. His 43 homers in the '97 season (not excessively high like other juicers - McGwire had 58 that year) is the lone aberration from a string of similar full-season homer numbers, and that could have been just a career year.

Naturally, Bagwell's power numbers went up after the Astros moved out of the Astrodome and into Minute Maid Park (won't use that original name, yecch) starting in 2000, with the short porch in left field.

IMO, Biggio should be a first ballot HOF inductee, and it would be very cool if Bagwell got in the same year. May have to wait till next year, though - given the usual BBWA bias towards players who played on the East coast.

While there may be some juicing conjecture put on Bagwell (he was a power hitter and he bulked up during his career), there's zero such conjecture on Biggio, and as an Astros fan of 35+ years, I'm a bit offended at even the mention of it.

[amsteel]

Was MLB's Juiced Era Actually a Juiced Ball Era?

[Daver]

Why is it that only hitters are brought up in this discussion, when the reality is more pitchers have been caught using them than hitters?

[SI1020]

Originally Posted by Daver

Why is it that only hitters are brought up in this discussion, when the reality is more pitchers have been caught using them than hitters?

What high profile pitchers other than Clemens have been mentioned? I'm just being curious and asking, not trying to provoke an argument with you. Also, I can't see how a pitcher in the mold of say a Randy Johnson, long, thin and rangy with a power arm would benefit from steroids. I sure would like to know what the "training regime" of Roger Clemens was.

[Mr. Jinx]

Originally Posted by SI1020

What high profile pitchers other than Clemens have been mentioned? I'm just being curious and asking, not trying to provoke an argument with you. Also, I can't see how a pitcher in the mold of say a Randy Johnson, long, thin and rangy with a power arm would benefit from steroids. I sure would like to know what the "training regime" of Roger Clemens was.

First one that comes to my mind although he isn't necessarily all that high profile was Derrick Turnbow. Oh, also Eric Gagne.

I don't think that is a very fair comparison with Johnson either. You could say that same that Prince Fielder with his massive girth wouldn't benefit from steroids. Also, not only power hitters and power pitchers used them. After all, Fernando Vina and Pablo Ozuna have been busted too.

[SI1020]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jinx

First one that comes to my mind although he isn't necessarily all that high profile was Derrick Turnbow. Oh, also Eric Gagne.

I don't think that is a very fair comparison with Johnson either. You could say that same that Prince Fielder with his massive girth wouldn't benefit from steroids. Also, not only power hitters and power pitchers used them. After all, Fernando Vina and Pablo Ozuna have been busted too.

Let me do my best to explain. Hitting a baseball 500 feet and consistently throwing a fastball in the mid 90's are two completely different things, using different muscle groups. At age 60 I could bench press almost double my weight, but doubt if I could have hit the high 50's on a radar gun. It would appear that Clemens found the right mixture for him, and in fairness he has a completely different physique than a Randy Johnson. Also, concerning a big man like Fielder, I think steroids would work wonders on that physique combined with diet and exercise. No, I'm not advocating that, I don't like PED's in sport.

Edit: Thanks for reminding me about Eric Gagne.

[SI1020]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jinx

As do all the players who used amphetamines for years and years.

Amphetamine use can definitely give one a short term performance and energy boost. Over time it has the exact opposite affect. The literature is out there if you are curious. Long term amphetamine use is devastating to the mind and body. Not nearly the same thing as the designer PED's out there today. It's like comparing an abacus to a modern day super computer.

[ChiSoxFann]

Originally Posted by SI1020

What high profile pitchers other than Clemens have been mentioned? I'm just being curious and asking, not trying to provoke an argument with you. Also, I can't see how a pitcher in the mold of say a Randy Johnson, long, thin and rangy with a power arm would benefit from steroids. I sure would like to know what the "training regime" of Roger Clemens was.

He's not high profile, but the Sun-Times ran a nice story a few years ago on Jim Parque admitting he used steroids. He was quoted saying he had a family and his fastball couldn't break a pane of glass so he would do anything just to keep a big league job and salary.

I'm sure a lot of the fringe players in MLB in that era used just to keep their jobs, not to set or break any records.

[Frater Perdurabo]

I don't see how steroids would help pitchers have more control, command, or even more break on their pitches.

[FielderJones]

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

I don't see how steroids would help pitchers have more control, command, or even more break on their pitches.

Control, command, and break depend on muscle repetition and arm slot consistency. Getting muscles to recover more quickly with steroids would eliminate the pain that causes pitchers to lose their arm slot and control.

[Oblong]

Originally Posted by SI1020

What high profile pitchers other than Clemens have been mentioned? I'm just being curious and asking, not trying to provoke an argument with you. Also, I can't see how a pitcher in the mold of say a Randy Johnson, long, thin and rangy with a power arm would benefit from steroids. I sure would like to know what the "training regime" of Roger Clemens was.

It' also a pure numbers game in that there's more hitters than pitchers so naturally you'll find more high profile hitters than pitchers. But there must be a benefit to pitchers as I do think it's true that more pitchers have actually been punished than pitchers. it's not just strength, it's recovery time and pain tolerance.

So in a case of juiced hitter vs. juiced pitcher.... who wins?


The point is there's a lot of conjecture going on and you can't just assume that a guy isn't using anymore. Rafael Palmeiro testifed under oath to Congress that he wasn't, and he wasn't a guy who anybody really would think woudl use as he wasn't a muscle head.... well he did. Same with Petitte. The whole era, right or wrong, is tainted, and for many it's guilty until proven innocent. Bagwell's being punished because he had big muscles.

Good thing for guys like Maddux and Glavine that they didn't work out vigorously.

[Mr. Jinx]

Originally Posted by SI1020

Amphetamine use can definitely give one a short term performance and energy boost. Over time it has the exact opposite affect. The literature is out there if you are curious. Long term amphetamine use is devastating to the mind and body. Not nearly the same thing as the designer PED's out there today. It's like comparing an abacus to a modern day super computer.

I don't agree with that analogy at all. In a game where a hitter will be at the plate for about 5 minutes and swing a bat for about 5 seconds I think a short term boost is huge. Also, cheating is still cheating.

Interesting on the long term effects though, didn't know that. What sort of time frame are you talking here? I look at guys like Aaron and Mays and they seem fine today, although I'm sure like anything else each person reacts differently to using drugs.

[happydude]

Bonds and Clemens, to me, are HOF'ers regardless of the cheating; they don't deserve first ballot status but they shouldn't have to wait until they're old and gray, either. And I'm not saying this as a fan of either; it annoys me to no end that Hank Aaron lost his "Home Run King" mantle to a guy who almost undoubtedly passed him due to PED use and I never liked Clemens. That being said, they were simply too good for too long to not get in. But this is coming from a guy who has ALWAYS thought Pete should be in, too, gambling or no gambling.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by Daver

Why is it that only hitters are brought up in this discussion, when the reality is more pitchers have been caught using them than hitters?

Part of the reason is that pitchers weren't producting numbers out of proportion to the history and legacy of the game. Sosa and McGwire passed Maris in the same season, and passed up the Ruth/Maris milestones later, which is even more incredible when you consider that Ruth and Maris only achieved 60 home runs once in their careers. Then Bonds passed McGwire's season home run record and Aaron's career record.

When there were whispers linking Mark Prior to steroids, Cubs fans dismissed the idea as ridiculous because he wasn't Sammy Sosa. Roger Clemens was a standout pitcher, but he never struck out 300 in a season, let alone threaten Nolan Ryan's record numbers. He never pitched more than eight shutouts in a season, not even approaching Bob Gibson numbers in shutouts or ERA. (Bob Gibson was asthmatic and his treatment probably included steroids, but other than relieving his asthma, I'm sure it didn't affect his performance.) Statistically, he wasn't even where Justin Verlander is now, and Justin Verlander isn't breaking high-profile records the way Sosa/McGwire and Bonds were. And one of the problems with steroids is that it also goes all the way down to marginal players who may not have gone that route if other players weren't competing clean. Most of the players involved with steroids wouldn't be considered Hall of Fame worthy in any case.

I wouldn't vote for Clemens either. It isn't a question of whether he would have been worthy of the Hall of Fame without the steroids. The fact is that steroids taints his career.

[WhiteSox5187]

Originally Posted by Daver

Why is it that only hitters are brought up in this discussion, when the reality is more pitchers have been caught using them than hitters?

Roger Clemens is very much involved in this conversation. Also, there weren't many pitching records that were shattered.