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  #16  
Old 12-04-2012, 11:57 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Dunn only put up a .333 OBP last year and I would be stunned if Flowers put up much more than AJ's OBP.

While the White Sox need to improve their OBP I think they also need to improve their batting average. They might have five guys in their lineup who hit below .260.
If you look at who potentially may produce high OBP, Flowers and Dunn are 2 of the better available options.
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  #17  
Old 12-04-2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Dunn only put up a .333 OBP last year and I would be stunned if Flowers put up much more than AJ's OBP.
Flowers's OBP was .296, AJ .326

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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
If you look at who potentially may produce high OBP, Flowers and Dunn are 2 of the better available options.
Based on what? See above.
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  #18  
Old 12-04-2012, 12:20 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
If you look at who potentially may produce high OBP, Flowers and Dunn are 2 of the better available options.
Historically Dunn puts up a good OBP, I will give you that. But when has Flowers ever put up a good OBP? AAA? Even then he was striking out in a third of his at bats, and that was against inferior pitching.
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  #19  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:00 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
Flowers's OBP was .296, AJ .326

Based on what? See above.
His entire minor league career. Let's dismiss minor league stats for a young, part time player. Makes a ton of sense.
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  #20  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:04 PM
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According to Hahn. Dewayne Wise decision, Rick:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...0,235471.story

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  #21  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:14 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
His entire minor league career. Let's dismiss minor league stats for a young, part time player. Makes a ton of sense.
I don't think it's too wise to put a lot of faith in a guy's OBP in the minors when he strikes out about twice as often as he walks and strikes out in almost a third of his plate appearances.
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  #22  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
This thread is basically about improving the team's obp. You want to accomplish that by getting rid of Dunn and Flowers while keeping AJ?
2012:
Dunn's OBP: .333
Pierzynski's OBP: .326
Flowers OBP: .296

2011:
Dunn's OBP: .292
Pierzynski's OBP: .323
Flowers OBP: .310

I don't know how feasible it is to move Dunn, but I don't think trading him would be any big loss to the team's OBP. He hasn't been a high OBP guy since moving to the American League.

Obviously, neither Pierzynski nor Flowers would be considered a high OBP guy.
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  #23  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:27 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I don't think it's too wise to put a lot of faith in a guy's OBP in the minors when he strikes out about twice as often as he walks and strikes out in almost a third of his plate appearances.
His career OBP is 120 over his BA. He hasn't come close to k'ing twice as much as walking. That's hyperbole.

I'll take my chances with a kid who has an excellent minor league track record relative to position over a 37 year old catcher coming off a career year, who's an awful defender to boot. People are letting their love of AJ cloud their judgement.
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  #24  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:40 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
His career OBP is 120 over his BA. He hasn't come close to k'ing twice as much as walking. That's hyperbole.

I'll take my chances with a kid who has an excellent minor league track record relative to position over a 37 year old catcher coming off a career year, who's an awful defender to boot. People are letting their love of AJ cloud their judgement.
Not only has Flowers come close to k'ing twice as much as he has walked, he's done it! Twice! In 2010 he had 121 strike outs compared to 55 walks and in 2011 he struck out 84 times to 39 walks. According to my calculator (and VERY limited understanding of math) that is a 2.2 and a 2.15 K/BB rate.

I will say that at this point in their respective careers Flowers is probably a BIT better behind the plate but it's not by much.
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  #25  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:48 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Not only has Flowers come close to k'ing twice as much as he has walked, he's done it! Twice! In 2010 he had 121 strike outs compared to 55 walks and in 2011 he struck out 84 times to 39 walks. According to my calculator (and VERY limited understanding of math) that is a 2.2 and a 2.15 K/BB rate.

I will say that at this point in their respective careers Flowers is probably a BIT better behind the plate but it's not by much.
I was talking career minor league stats.

The defense isn't even close. AJ is just awful behind the plate. Awful.
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  #26  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:03 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
I was talking career minor league stats.

The defense isn't even close. AJ is just awful behind the plate. Awful.
Career minor league stats are pretty worthless because what, 1% of minor leaguers are going to make it to the majors? So you're going to face a LOT of garbage pitchers who will never come close to even sniffing the majors, especially in the low levels of the minors. Above A ball Flowers has not demonstrated, to me at least, anything that would suggest he would be a high OBP guy.

As far as defense goes, from my untrained eye it seems to me that AJ's biggest problem is with balls in the dirt on the corners. I think he struggles with those so much more now than a few years ago because his knees are giving out on him, but I see Flowers struggle with those pitches as well. Much more than AJ did back when he first came over. Flowers has a better arm than AJ, but AJ had a pretty good year throwing out base runners as well.
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  #27  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:14 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Career minor league stats are pretty worthless because what, 1% of minor leaguers are going to make it to the majors? So you're going to face a LOT of garbage pitchers who will never come close to even sniffing the majors, especially in the low levels of the minors. Above A ball Flowers has not demonstrated, to me at least, anything that would suggest he would be a high OBP guy.

As far as defense goes, from my untrained eye it seems to me that AJ's biggest problem is with balls in the dirt on the corners. I think he struggles with those so much more now than a few years ago because his knees are giving out on him, but I see Flowers struggle with those pitches as well. Much more than AJ did back when he first came over. Flowers has a better arm than AJ, but AJ had a pretty good year throwing out base runners as well.
Until a player gets consistent major league AB's, his minor league numbers are the best indicators. Flowers hasn't gotten enough major league ABs to make any definitive judgements. I like his potential as a hitter and defender.
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  #28  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:23 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Until a player gets consistent major league AB's, his minor league numbers are the best indicators. Flowers hasn't gotten enough major league ABs to make any definitive judgements. I like his potential as a hitter and defender.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I haven't seen anything in Flowers minor league numbers or his approach in the majors that suggest he will be a high OBP guy. I think he will be a low average, low OBP, high strike out guy with some power who won't kill you defensively. The White Sox have too many low average, low OBP guys in their lineup as it is.
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  #29  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:31 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I haven't seen anything in Flowers minor league numbers or his approach in the majors that suggest he will be a high OBP guy. I think he will be a low average, low OBP, high strike out guy with some power who won't kill you defensively. The White Sox have too many low average, low OBP guys in their lineup as it is.
A catcher with a career milb 391 OBP is pretty substantial. I'm not sure what more you could realistically ask for.
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  #30  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:47 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I haven't seen anything in Flowers minor league numbers or his approach in the majors that suggest he will be a high OBP guy. I think he will be a low average, low OBP, high strike out guy with some power who won't kill you defensively. The White Sox have too many low average, low OBP guys in their lineup as it is.
You haven't seen anything in his minor league numbers that suggest he could be a high OBP guy? Have you looked at his minor league numbers?
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