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  #46  
Old 12-01-2012, 12:16 AM
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Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
...Bob Gibson was asthmatic and his treatment probably included steroids, but other than relieving his asthma, I'm sure it didn't affect his performance.
Not all steroids are PEDs. Hell, vitamin D is a steroid. Cholesterol is a steroid.

The steroids in an asthma inhaler are catabolic (or anti-inflamatory) steroids, not anabolic (or muscle-building) steroids. Big difference.
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  #47  
Old 12-01-2012, 11:46 AM
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Daver Daver is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Roger Clemens is very much involved in this conversation. Also, there weren't many pitching records that were shattered.
I doubt there will be any pitching records broken any time soon, the wimpification of the position dictates that.
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  #48  
Old 12-01-2012, 12:12 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Jinx View Post
I don't agree with that analogy at all. In a game where a hitter will be at the plate for about 5 minutes and swing a bat for about 5 seconds I think a short term boost is huge. Also, cheating is still cheating.

Interesting on the long term effects though, didn't know that. What sort of time frame are you talking here? I look at guys like Aaron and Mays and they seem fine today, although I'm sure like anything else each person reacts differently to using drugs.
http://www.amazon.com/Speed-Speed-Sp...owViewpoints=1

Willie Mays was linked by second and third hand information to the "red juice" later in his career. Watching him play for the Mets was as close to heartbreaking as it gets. He was just a shadow of his former self. His major accuser was John Milner who was a teammate of his on the Mets. I have no knowledge of Aaron being linked to anything. Look at the physique of Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Robinson, et al and then compare before and afters of Bonds, Sosa and McGwire. I stand by my previous post so we can agree to disagree.
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  #49  
Old 12-01-2012, 12:32 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
http://www.amazon.com/Speed-Speed-Sp...owViewpoints=1

Willie Mays was linked by second and third hand information to the "red juice" later in his career. Watching him play for the Mets was as close to heartbreaking as it gets. He was just a shadow of his former self. His major accuser was John Milner who was a teammate of his on the Mets. I have no knowledge of Aaron being linked to anything. Look at the physique of Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Robinson, et al and then compare before and afters of Bonds, Sosa and McGwire. I stand by my previous post so we can agree to disagree.
Mantle's case, though, raises an interesting point. Mickey "Hey, You Usin' That Liver?" Mantle would have used stimulants in an effort to counter the effect of a lifestyle that otherwise would have worn them down. Many ballplayers seem to have been using stimulants, not to gain an edge, but to play at a level at which they would have been able to comptee if they had focused on baseball and not partied hard. For some players the use of stimulants enchanced their performance less than a healthier lifestyle would have. And, ultimately, a healtier lifestyle allows players to get more out of their talents.
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  #50  
Old 12-01-2012, 02:28 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
http://www.amazon.com/Speed-Speed-Sp...owViewpoints=1

Willie Mays was linked by second and third hand information to the "red juice" later in his career. Watching him play for the Mets was as close to heartbreaking as it gets. He was just a shadow of his former self. His major accuser was John Milner who was a teammate of his on the Mets. I have no knowledge of Aaron being linked to anything. Look at the physique of Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Robinson, et al and then compare before and afters of Bonds, Sosa and McGwire. I stand by my previous post so we can agree to disagree.
Simply having huge muscles doesn't necessarily equate to hitting a ball far or throwing it harder, having great concentration and faster reaction times means just as much. I've played against plenty of massive bodybuilder type guys in softball and it is hilarious to watch them try and swing a bat.
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  #51  
Old 12-01-2012, 02:59 PM
tstrike2000 tstrike2000 is offline
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It's too bad the HOF is a joke. The 2013 class appears to be the most difficult because of the number of probable PED users. The only legit players I see will be Big Hurt and Greg Maddux as first ballot HOF'ers in '14, Randy Johnson in '15, and Griffey Jr. in '16. The rest of 'em can take a long walk off of a short pier.
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  #52  
Old 12-13-2012, 05:53 PM
We Treat'em We Treat'em is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Jinx View Post
Simply having huge muscles doesn't necessarily equate to hitting a ball far or throwing it harder, having great concentration and faster reaction times means just as much. I've played against plenty of massive bodybuilder type guys in softball and it is hilarious to watch them try and swing a bat.
I agree....example Ken Griffey Jr. Although can count him out of the PED talk just look at A-Rod. Sometimes I think they should just close the HOF and start a new group maybe "Hall of I Don't Care That Your a Cheater, Your Really Good at Baseball" or "You Saved Baseball After the Lockout So We're Going to Look the Other Way on Your PED Use Club" IMO it's all fluff untill they let the hit king in! Santo before Rose....what a joke.
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  #53  
Old 12-31-2012, 12:55 PM
Hendu Hendu is online now
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Originally Posted by SOXfnNlansing View Post
It's something how the Hit King is banished for life and most people are fine with that and this new cheating bunch has a lot of people wanting to look the other way because they would have been in the hall before they took drugs. What if Pete got 3000 hits and bet on games after that. Where is the argument that 3000 hits gets you in (in that era) and he would have been eligible for his career when he wasn't betting on games?

None of them should be in the hall.
The hit king agreed to his lifetime banishment, so this is a completely different situation.

I think players should be judged on their numbers alone, unless they tested positive after MLB implemented a testing program. Otherwise, we're going to see players kept out on nothing more than suspicion or hearsay, while other players who were supposedly clean will get in and years later admit to using.

Here's a good SI article supporting Barry's candidacy: Link

If you had asked me 5 years ago, I would have said hell no to Barry getting in. But knowing that even the supposed clean guys at the time like A-Rod were using...it was way more wide-spread than we realize.

However, I can understand not letting Sosa and McGwire in because they played in an era where homeruns were devalued, and their games didn't offer much else.
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  #54  
Old 12-31-2012, 02:54 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Jinx View Post
Simply having huge muscles doesn't necessarily equate to hitting a ball far or throwing it harder, having great concentration and faster reaction times means just as much.
True, but steroids can be used to improve reflexes, stamina, eye sight, etc. not just building strength
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  #55  
Old 12-31-2012, 05:09 PM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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If I had a ballot:

Biggio
Trammell
Martinez
Raines
Bagwell
Clemens
Bonds
Piazza
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  #56  
Old 12-31-2012, 05:16 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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True, but steroids can be used to improve reflexes, stamina, eye sight, etc. not just building strength
I completely agree. My entire point is that if you're going to let in guys who have admittedly used amphetamines, you should let in guys who used steroids too. Both were not against the rules at the time so it seems dumb to just gloss over one and not the other. Conversely, if you're not going to let in guys like Bonds, Clemens, etc, you better kick out guys like Mays and Aaron for using performance enhancers too.
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  #57  
Old 12-31-2012, 05:48 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by SephClone89 View Post
If I had a ballot:

Biggio
Trammell
Martinez
Raines
Bagwell
Clemens
Bonds
Piazza
I really don't get this. Your obviously deducting Bonds and Clemens but why even vote for them at all.

I feel Piazza used and i'm guessing thats why he's last on your list but Biggio shouldn't get a pass either. Biggio went from hitting 3 or 4 homeruns a year to hitting 20-25 a year. The fact that he played with one of the biggest steroid teams in baseball really makes me wonder about him.

Alan Trammell deserves support and I hope he gets in someday but he's not the second most deserving on your list.

If your gonna vote for these guys then Bonds is a easy number one. If your deducting for steroids then take off everyone except Raines and Trammell.

I hate the era but I do feel at least 75 percent of players used and to put some guys in like Biggio or Piazza is ridiculous. Just because they didn't hit 60 homeruns doesn't mean they weren't using. Lenny Dykstra was a admitted user and steroids turned him into a guy who went from single digit homeruns to 15-20 homeruns. You don't have to hit 60 homeruns to be a steroid user.
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  #58  
Old 12-31-2012, 06:37 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Jinx View Post
I completely agree. My entire point is that if you're going to let in guys who have admittedly used amphetamines, you should let in guys who used steroids too. Both were not against the rules at the time so it seems dumb to just gloss over one and not the other. Conversely, if you're not going to let in guys like Bonds, Clemens, etc, you better kick out guys like Mays and Aaron for using performance enhancers too.
The extent to which amphetamines enhance performance compared to extent that steroids help is like comparing the destructive capabilities of a squirt gun compared to an AK-47. Amphetamines can help your focus and keep you alert but they don't make you stronger or improve your reflexes.
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  #59  
Old 12-31-2012, 07:01 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
The extent to which amphetamines enhance performance compared to extent that steroids help is like comparing the destructive capabilities of a squirt gun compared to an AK-47. Amphetamines can help your focus and keep you alert but they don't make you stronger or improve your reflexes.
I agree with what you say but Mr Jinx has a point. If players in the 60's were using greenies for an advantage then they surely would have used peds had they been available. I know peds were 100 times more damaging to baseball but players who used greenies aren't all that different than players who used peds. Both were trying to cheat the game.
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  #60  
Old 12-31-2012, 07:20 PM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post

I really don't get this. Your obviously deducting Bonds and Clemens but why even vote for them at all.

I feel Piazza used and i'm guessing thats why he's last on your list but Biggio shouldn't get a pass either. Biggio went from hitting 3 or 4 homeruns a year to hitting 20-25 a year. The fact that he played with one of the biggest steroid teams in baseball really makes me wonder about him.

Alan Trammell deserves support and I hope he gets in someday but he's not the second most deserving on your list.

If your gonna vote for these guys then Bonds is a easy number one. If your deducting for steroids then take off everyone except Raines and Trammell.
What does the order have to do with anything? This was in no particular order. This isn't MVP voting...
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