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  #106  
Old 01-07-2013, 12:25 PM
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FielderJones FielderJones is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Why did the NFL ban marijuana? Clearly not a performance enhancer, unless you're Fats Waller.

"Hey, recreational drugs can be PEDs."
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  #107  
Old 01-08-2013, 02:53 PM
Oblong Oblong is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
IMO, the usual BBWA east coast bias is keeping him out more than the juicing speculation at this point, which could also cost Biggio on his first ballot.

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The BBWAA east coast bias thing is a myth. The reason there appears to be one is because the Veterans committee had lobbying for guys like Rizzuto and because in the early days of baseball the east coast had a lot of teams. But in the last 50 years I can't think of any BBWAA inductee that got in because of east coast bias. There's pletny of marginal HOFers that were not east coast based.
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  #108  
Old 01-08-2013, 03:26 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by Oblong View Post
The BBWAA east coast bias thing is a myth. The reason there appears to be one is because the Veterans committee had lobbying for guys like Rizzuto and because in the early days of baseball the east coast had a lot of teams. But in the last 50 years I can't think of any BBWAA inductee that got in because of east coast bias. There's pletny of marginal HOFers that were not east coast based.
How about Jim Rice? The year he had in '78 was ridiculous, but he didn't hit major milestones like 3,000 hits or 400 HRs. Seems to me a "Hall of Very Good" member, boosted because he played in Boston his entire career.

I recall a thread comparing Rice and Baines, and there were a lot of similaries.
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  #109  
Old 01-08-2013, 03:53 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
How about Jim Rice? The year he had in '78 was ridiculous, but he didn't hit major milestones like 3,000 hits or 400 HRs. Seems to me a "Hall of Very Good" member, boosted because he played in Boston his entire career.

I recall a thread comparing Rice and Baines, and there were a lot of similaries.
Jim Rice benefited a lot from ESPN churning out articles about him year in and year out. I also think Curt Schilling is getting a boost for playing with the Red Sox in 2004. I guess we will see what his final numbers are.
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  #110  
Old 01-08-2013, 06:51 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Jim Rice is probably more like Dale Murphy who I thought was better than Rice. Murphy and Rice really show why nice guys finish last because Murphy had to have been the nicest guy in the world towards the media and Rice one of the biggest jerks yet Murphy gets shunned.

Harold Baines deff played in the wrong time frame, he would have gotten 3000 hits had it not been for 3 years of strikes causing him to miss over 100 games.
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  #111  
Old 01-08-2013, 06:59 PM
sox1970 sox1970 is offline
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Jim Rice is probably more like Dale Murphy who I thought was better than Rice. Murphy and Rice really show why nice guys finish last because Murphy had to have been the nicest guy in the world towards the media and Rice one of the biggest jerks yet Murphy gets shunned.

Harold Baines deff played in the wrong time frame, he would have gotten 3000 hits had it not been for 3 years of strikes causing him to miss over 100 games.
Baines missed 124 team games because of strikes. Say he played 115 of those games. He didn't average over one hit per game in 1981, 1994, and 1995, so it's unlikely he would have 134 hits in those 124 team games to get to 3000.
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  #112  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:12 PM
Oblong Oblong is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
How about Jim Rice? The year he had in '78 was ridiculous, but he didn't hit major milestones like 3,000 hits or 400 HRs. Seems to me a "Hall of Very Good" member, boosted because he played in Boston his entire career.

I recall a thread comparing Rice and Baines, and there were a lot of similaries.
If there was an East Coast bias he wouldn't have waited the full 15 years to get on. He started out with under 30% of the vote. Bert Blyleven had the same type of trajectory, (MIN), and Jack Morris could end up the same.

Gary Carter had to wait for his 6th ballot. Should have gone in on the first.
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  #113  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:46 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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I don't know if anyone is currently watching it but MLB Network is having a fascinating roundtable about the HOF vote and PEDs. Tom Verducci had an interesting point about the difference between greenies and steroids where he said it is a difference between "performance enablers" compared "performance enhancers."
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  #114  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:50 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by sox1970 View Post
Baines missed 124 team games because of strikes. Say he played 115 of those games. He didn't average over one hit per game in 1981, 1994, and 1995, so it's unlikely he would have 134 hits in those 124 team games to get to 3000.
If he hadn't been traded by the White Sox, Harold Baines likely would have had finished his career with more than 3,000 hits. That's what Jerry Reinsdorf believes anyway, and I agree with him on this point. Harold actually hit lefties pretty well, and lefty starters better than lefty relief specialists, which is true for most lefthanded hitters. But after he left the Sox, he played appreciably fewer games because he was platooned.
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  #115  
Old 01-09-2013, 12:28 AM
Noir Noir is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I don't know if anyone is currently watching it but MLB Network is having a fascinating roundtable about the HOF vote and PEDs. Tom Verducci had an interesting point about the difference between greenies and steroids where he said it is a difference between "performance enablers" compared "performance enhancers."
I believe when it is all said and done, the only aspect of a players performance these drugs actually made is recovery time
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  #116  
Old 01-09-2013, 01:46 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by sox1970 View Post
Baines missed 124 team games because of strikes. Say he played 115 of those games. He didn't average over one hit per game in 1981, 1994, and 1995, so it's unlikely he would have 134 hits in those 124 team games to get to 3000.
He would have gotten his atbats if he was 20 or 30 hits short at the end of his career. Again the strikes hurt him more than any player besides Tim Raines.
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  #117  
Old 01-09-2013, 02:23 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Noir View Post
I believe when it is all said and done, the only aspect of a players performance these drugs actually made is recovery time
No, steroids make you bigger, faster, and stronger. There is a reason Sammy Sosa went from looking like this:



To this:

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  #118  
Old 01-09-2013, 09:04 AM
sox1970 sox1970 is offline
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
He would have gotten his atbats if he was 20 or 30 hits short at the end of his career. Again the strikes hurt him more than any player besides Tim Raines.
It's a fair point, but how long were teams going to let him hang around for 3000? That would be so White Sox.

I also think Fred McGriff was hurt by the strike of 94-95. He would be over 500 homers, which to a lot of voters is a Hall of Fame benchmark. Also, if he played his career clean with almost everyone else around him juicing to get to 500-600-762 homers, then it makes his career look less significant. Personally, I think McGriff was probably every bit as good as Willie McCovey or Eddie Murray.
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  #119  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:30 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by sox1970 View Post
It's a fair point, but how long were teams going to let him hang around for 3000? That would be so White Sox.

I also think Fred McGriff was hurt by the strike of 94-95. He would be over 500 homers, which to a lot of voters is a Hall of Fame benchmark. Also, if he played his career clean with almost everyone else around him juicing to get to 500-600-762 homers, then it makes his career look less significant. Personally, I think McGriff was probably every bit as good as Willie McCovey or Eddie Murray.
Willie Stargell too, Yeah Fred McGriff should already be in. I guess the knock on him is defense or the fact he played for 3 or 4 teams and was never really the elite player on any team he played for. I think he had like 6 or 7 top 10 MVP seasons but every year one of his teammates finsihed higher.
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  #120  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:52 AM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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So the Cub fan/resident Sosa apologist in my office said Sosa should get in since nobody has every said they witnessed him taking the stuff, was told by him he has taken the stuff or supplied him with it.

I told him by that reasoning, we should stop saying Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK because he was never convicted of the crime.
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