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  #166  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:16 AM
sox1970 sox1970 is offline
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It continues to be a sick joke that Tim Raines has not been voted in.
He's a victim off too much mediocre baseball after age 35. If people would just look at his 162 game average from the beginning of his career through age 35, he's a no-brainer. Throw in his peak of 1981-1987, where he lost time because of the strike and collusion in 1987, too. He should have won an MVP in 1987. It's crystal clear he's a Hall of Fame player.
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  #167  
Old 01-10-2013, 12:36 PM
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I think Frank is going to get screwed by "purists" who don't want to vote for a "one-dimensional DH."

As I've always said, the Hall is full of one-dimensional players. They are called pitchers. If you're historically great at your "one dimension," you belong in the Hall. It's pretty simple to me.
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  #168  
Old 01-10-2013, 12:43 PM
Hendu Hendu is offline
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
I've heard steroid rumors on Cal Ripken, Nolan Ryan, Dennis Eckersley, Rickey Henderson and Roberto Alomar. I can't say if any of them used but I would put money on the fact that at least one of them did use at so the hof is already more than likely tainted with steroids.

I don't agree with revoking a guys hof status because really the only reason anyone cares about steroids now instead of 20 years ago is because Hank Aarons and RogerMaris's records were broken. Every babyboomer in the country loved Nolan Ryan in the early 90's but can you imagine a 45 year old pitcher today striking out 300 batters and what the fans and media would be thinking.
Good points. Players were using PEDs as early as the 70s (Tom House, the pitcher who caught Aaron's record-breaking HR in the bullpen, admitted to using anabolic steroids back then), so there are already juicers in the HOF. Probably a lot more than we think. And as you said, for Nolan Ryan to put up those numbers into his mid-40s? C'mon...
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  #169  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:54 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
I think Frank is going to get screwed by "purists" who don't want to vote for a "one-dimensional DH."

As I've always said, the Hall is full of one-dimensional players. They are called pitchers. If you're historically great at your "one dimension," you belong in the Hall. It's pretty simple to me.
I've never thought of it that way before, really good point.
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  #170  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:56 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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Good points. Players were using PEDs as early as the 70s (Tom House, the pitcher who caught Aaron's record-breaking HR in the bullpen, admitted to using anabolic steroids back then), so there are already juicers in the HOF. Probably a lot more than we think. And as you said, for Nolan Ryan to put up those numbers into his mid-40s? C'mon...
Exactly. There's juicers in the hall now, there will be more juicers that get elected in the future that we may or may not ever know about. Just let them all in and cut out the crap. I can't wait until they elect someone in the next few years who comes out and admits using or gets outed later on down the road. Just imagine the hand wringing!
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  #171  
Old 01-10-2013, 02:08 PM
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Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
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Exactly. There's juicers in the hall now, there will be more juicers that get elected in the future that we may or may not ever know about. Just let them all in and cut out the crap.
I couldn't disagree more. They should continue to do the best they can to keep cheaters out. And before you ask, no I don't think Gaylord Perry should have gotten in. But just because there are some in the HOF who should not be is no reason to just throw up your hands and say "there's nothing we can do about it."

Should there be a mechanism for retroactively removing someone from The Hall? You bet. Just like Armstrong got his Tour titles stripped.
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  #172  
Old 01-10-2013, 02:19 PM
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Personally, what offends me the most about this year's voting is that someone gave Aaron Sele a vote. WHAT THE ****

If the dip****s that comprise the BBWAA want to have a haughty circle jerk of self righteousness, what the hell do I care? I've been well aware the BBWAA is chock full of morons for a while. But who the **** looked a guy with a career 148-121 record, 4.61 ERA, and 1.491 WHIP and was like, GIVE THIS MAN A PLAQUE?
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  #173  
Old 01-10-2013, 03:06 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Personally, what offends me the most about this year's voting is that someone gave Aaron Sele a vote. WHAT THE ****

If the dip****s that comprise the BBWAA want to have a haughty circle jerk of self righteousness, what the hell do I care? I've been well aware the BBWAA is chock full of morons for a while. But who the **** looked a guy with a career 148-121 record, 4.61 ERA, and 1.491 WHIP and was like, GIVE THIS MAN A PLAQUE?
I've never understood this, either. I suppose there's always going to be people who vote for players they liked, regardless of whether they're deserving, but I agree that they shouldn't be wasting their votes on someone who has little or no chance of getting in.
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  #174  
Old 01-10-2013, 03:09 PM
sox1970 sox1970 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Personally, what offends me the most about this year's voting is that someone gave Aaron Sele a vote. WHAT THE ****

If the dip****s that comprise the BBWAA want to have a haughty circle jerk of self righteousness, what the hell do I care? I've been well aware the BBWAA is chock full of morons for a while. But who the **** looked a guy with a career 148-121 record, 4.61 ERA, and 1.491 WHIP and was like, GIVE THIS MAN A PLAQUE?
I call these "buddy" votes. They know the guy isn't getting in, but they throw a guy they like a vote just for the hell of it. It doesn't bother me, but the Hall should just get the actual ballot down to guys where it makes sense to avoid this.
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  #175  
Old 01-10-2013, 04:32 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
I couldn't disagree more. They should continue to do the best they can to keep cheaters out. And before you ask, no I don't think Gaylord Perry should have gotten in. But just because there are some in the HOF who should not be is no reason to just throw up your hands and say "there's nothing we can do about it."

Should there be a mechanism for retroactively removing someone from The Hall? You bet. Just like Armstrong got his Tour titles stripped.
Well, I can't say I couldn't disagree more, just disagree mostly. At least you are consistent about your cheaters, unlike so many others.
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  #176  
Old 01-10-2013, 06:09 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
I couldn't disagree more. They should continue to do the best they can to keep cheaters out. And before you ask, no I don't think Gaylord Perry should have gotten in. But just because there are some in the HOF who should not be is no reason to just throw up your hands and say "there's nothing we can do about it."

Should there be a mechanism for retroactively removing someone from The Hall? You bet. Just like Armstrong got his Tour titles stripped.
I respect your opinion but cheating is part of baseball, always has been. Cheating has been with baseball since before Ty Cobb and it's gonna be around even when we are dead.

Gaylod Perry wrote a book admitting how he cheated yet I don't think any umpire ever caught him, it's hard to not respect that a little bit. I would have to think every pitcher scuffed or used a spitball sometime in their careers especially as they got older. Whitey Ford admitted to scuffing balls too so taking cheaters out of baseball is like taking sugar out of candy. It's part of the game.

The way players have cheated today with steroids isn't a sexy way to cheat especially to older generations who feel Aarons and Maris's records are sacred but I would have to think every generation would have done the same thing if steroids were available. I think the only way to determine who belongs is if we look at the player themselves.

--Barry Bonds..No doubt hofer, steroids did inflate his numbers but he would have ended up with 600 homeruns regardless.
--Roger Clemens....Same as Bonds, he would have ended up with hof numbers without roids.
--Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro both weren't going to be hofers without roids so they need to be kept out.
--Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell should and will get in but I just feel they all used at some point but should the voters punish them for making a bad decision. I personally don't think they should penalize them.
--Mark McGwire is one who I really don't know how to judge. I think he would have gotten close to 500 homeruns but injuries may have kept him out longer without the roids too.

Nobody is ever going to know who really used or didn't use roids so these voters need to use common sense on who should go in.
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  #177  
Old 01-10-2013, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
I respect your opinion but cheating is part of baseball, always has been. Cheating has been with baseball since before Ty Cobb and it's gonna be around even when we are dead.

Gaylod Perry wrote a book admitting how he cheated yet I don't think any umpire ever caught him, it's hard to not respect that a little bit. I would have to think every pitcher scuffed or used a spitball sometime in their careers especially as they got older. Whitey Ford admitted to scuffing balls too so taking cheaters out of baseball is like taking sugar out of candy. It's part of the game.

The way players have cheated today with steroids isn't a sexy way to cheat especially to older generations who feel Aarons and Maris's records are sacred but I would have to think every generation would have done the same thing if steroids were available. I think the only way to determine who belongs is if we look at the player themselves.

--Barry Bonds..No doubt hofer, steroids did inflate his numbers but he would have ended up with 600 homeruns regardless.
--Roger Clemens....Same as Bonds, he would have ended up with hof numbers without roids.
--Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro both weren't going to be hofers without roids so they need to be kept out.
--Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell should and will get in but I just feel they all used at some point but should the voters punish them for making a bad decision. I personally don't think they should penalize them.
--Mark McGwire is one who I really don't know how to judge. I think he would have gotten close to 500 homeruns but injuries may have kept him out longer without the roids too.

Nobody is ever going to know who really used or didn't use roids so these voters need to use common sense on who should go in.
This is ridiculous. So in other words, the players that didn't cheat, that actually played the game the right way were just idiots for not cheating? Just because cheating has been a part of baseball since its inception doesn't mean you should be rewarded for it anymore than a high school student should be rewarded for cheating on an entrance exam. And never mind the cheating aspect of it. Steroids are illegal. You're suggesting players should get rewarded for breaking the law.

Now what is hypocritical is the same writers that were cheering the long ball and players like mcGwire and Sosa are now the same ones saying they don't belong in the HOF.

And I have no respect for someone that takes glee in never getting caught cheating. I just can't. Not getting on a moral high horse, but that's basically saying you have no integrity, and couldn't make it unless you had an unfair advantage.
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  #178  
Old 01-10-2013, 06:45 PM
TDog TDog is online now
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...

Nobody is ever going to know who really used or didn't use roids so these voters need to use common sense on who should go in.
This argument runs counter to the purpose of the Hall of Fame. Not knowing who unlawfully enhanced their muscle mass does not excuse opening the door to players who tarnished the game by obviously and apparently doing so.

Barry Bonds might have had the sort of relationship with the Hall of Fame that Jack Morris has if he hadn't juiced. You really don't know. What you do know is that by juicing he lost the respect of most baseball fans and helped change the game in a negative way. There are many who believe he doesn't belong in the record books, and the bar for the Hall of Fame is higher.
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  #179  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:23 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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This is ridiculous. So in other words, the players that didn't cheat, that actually played the game the right way were just idiots for not cheating? Just because cheating has been a part of baseball since its inception doesn't mean you should be rewarded for it anymore than a high school student should be rewarded for cheating on an entrance exam. And never mind the cheating aspect of it. Steroids are illegal. You're suggesting players should get rewarded for breaking the law.

Now what is hypocritical is the same writers that were cheering the long ball and players like mcGwire and Sosa are now the same ones saying they don't belong in the HOF.

And I have no respect for someone that takes glee in never getting caught cheating. I just can't. Not getting on a moral high horse, but that's basically saying you have no integrity, and couldn't make it unless you had an unfair advantage.
The way I look at it is cheating is cheating and every good player is going to look for any advantage he can to win and in most cases cheating will be involved. Obviously steroids are alot worse than some guy putting a little to much pine tar on his bat but where do you draw the line on cheating. I don't like how records were broken during the steroid era but it is what it is. You can't keep a whole generation out of the hof. I doubt theres a player in the hof who never cheated to gain an edge.

Gaylord Perry told the whole world he cheated and I have to give him credit for getting away with it. Again every pitcher scuffs balls especially in his era when they didn't throw every other ball away.
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  #180  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:26 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
I couldn't disagree more. They should continue to do the best they can to keep cheaters out. And before you ask, no I don't think Gaylord Perry should have gotten in. But just because there are some in the HOF who should not be is no reason to just throw up your hands and say "there's nothing we can do about it."

Should there be a mechanism for retroactively removing someone from The Hall? You bet. Just like Armstrong got his Tour titles stripped.
I agree with this, but how do you decide who did and who did not cheat?

Off the top of my head, this year I would have voted in Raines, Piazza, Biggio and Bagwell.
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