White Sox Interactive Forums
Talking Baseball

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Talking Baseball
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #181  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:30 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Aurora Illinois
Posts: 877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
This argument runs counter to the purpose of the Hall of Fame. Not knowing who unlawfully enhanced their muscle mass does not excuse opening the door to players who tarnished the game by obviously and apparently doing so.

Barry Bonds might have had the sort of relationship with the Hall of Fame that Jack Morris has if he hadn't juiced. You really don't know. What you do know is that by juicing he lost the respect of most baseball fans and helped change the game in a negative way. There are many who believe he doesn't belong in the record books, and the bar for the Hall of Fame is higher.
This is why voters need to use common sense, Bonds more tha likely started using in 1999 after the whole Sosa/McGwire deal and he was already a hofer so comparing him to a Jack Morris career isn't using common sense. Now comparing Sosa to a Morris career is probably about right. I agree he did lose the respect of most baseball fans including me but 90 percent of that era was on roids and yeah he deff inflated his career stats but you gotta hand it to Bonds too for putting every other steroid user to shame with the numbers he put up.
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:31 PM
Hendu Hendu is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Old Town
Posts: 3,589
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
This argument runs counter to the purpose of the Hall of Fame. Not knowing who unlawfully enhanced their muscle mass does not excuse opening the door to players who tarnished the game by obviously and apparently doing so.

Barry Bonds might have had the sort of relationship with the Hall of Fame that Jack Morris has if he hadn't juiced. You really don't know. What you do know is that by juicing he lost the respect of most baseball fans and helped change the game in a negative way. There are many who believe he doesn't belong in the record books, and the bar for the Hall of Fame is higher.
Here's who else changed the game in a negative way: the clean players who didn't speak out, the already enshrined players who were juicers before this whole thing got out of control, Bud Selig who buried his head in the sand, owners who ignored the rumors and counted their money, the BBWA who felated McGwire, Sosa and Bonds before turning on them, etc.

What does the "purpose of the Hall of Fame" even mean? How is it a relevant institution when neither the hit king nor the homerun king are included? Sure, people see it as a shrine but it's also a museum of the game and its greatest players.

Plus, the bar isn't that high if Jack Morris is in the discussion of deserving candidates.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:42 PM
mzh mzh is online now
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
This is why voters need to use common sense, Bonds more tha likely started using in 1999 after the whole Sosa/McGwire deal and he was already a hofer so comparing him to a Jack Morris career isn't using common sense. Now comparing Sosa to a Morris career is probably about right. I agree he did lose the respect of most baseball fans including me but 90 percent of that era was on roids and yeah he deff inflated his career stats but you gotta hand it to Bonds too for putting every other steroid user to shame with the numbers he put up.
Why does any of this matter? You said it yourself- cheating is cheating is cheating. End of story. Period. Was Pete Rose a HOFer before he bet on games? Absolutely. Was Joe Jackson a HOFer before he threw a World Series? No doubt. There's no reason why some players should be forgiven for cheating just because they were great players beforehand.
__________________
Obligatory Attendance Record:
3-3
Reply With Quote
  #184  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:56 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Aurora Illinois
Posts: 877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mzh View Post
Why does any of this matter? You said it yourself- cheating is cheating is cheating. End of story. Period. Was Pete Rose a HOFer before he bet on games? Absolutely. Was Joe Jackson a HOFer before he threw a World Series? No doubt. There's no reason why some players should be forgiven for cheating just because they were great players beforehand.
Those are totally different arguments. Personally I feel Joe Jackson should have been put in 60 years ago when he died. Thats when his lifetime ban ended.

These steroid players aren't banned from baseball. And steroids were being used because baseball didn't have drug testing in fact most of the stuff they used could be bought at a GNC store. I keep hearing how Tim Raines should be in the hof and I feel he should be in too but this guy was using cocaine and he gets more votes than guys who were taking over the counter drugs.
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:01 PM
spawn's Avatar
spawn spawn is offline
Everybody's All-American
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: My Mother's Basement, Plainfield,Il.
Posts: 11,685
Blog Entries: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
Those are totally different arguments. Personally I feel Joe Jackson should have been put in 60 years ago when he died. Thats when his lifetime ban ended.

These steroid players aren't banned from baseball. And steroids were being used because baseball didn't have drug testing in fact most of the stuff they used could be bought at a GNC store. I keep hearing how Tim Raines should be in the hof and I feel he should be in too but this guy was using cocaine and he gets more votes than guys who were taking over the counter drugs.
What?!?! Who was taking over the counter drugs? I've shopped at GNC numerous times, and I don't ever remember seeing steroids or HGH on the shelves. Canseco, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro...these guys weren't using creatine and protein powders!

And cocaine isn't a performance enhancer. And this isn't meant to excuse his drug use, but according to Raines himself, his performance suffered because of his drug use.
__________________


A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives- Jackie Robinson

www.twitter.com/Spawn_03
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:16 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Aurora Illinois
Posts: 877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spawn View Post
What?!?! Who was taking over the counter drugs? I've shopped at GNC numerous times, and I don't ever remember seeing steroids or HGH on the shelves. Canseco, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro...these guys weren't using creatine and protein powders!

And cocaine isn't a performance enhancer. And this isn't meant to excuse his drug use, but according to Raines himself, his performance suffered because of his drug use.
Whatever they were taking baseball didn't have a policy enforced and McGwire got caught with andro in his locker which was sold at GNC stores. I'll admit these guys deff were taking some high powered stuff but again baseball should have done something about steroids when football clamped down in the late 80's.

With Raines it's a moral issue and I think he should be in but taking cocaine deff is a moral issue and being a moral person is one of the hof standards so he shouldn't be getting more votes than steroid users.
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:24 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 17,306
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
The way I look at it is cheating is cheating and every good player is going to look for any advantage he can to win and in most cases cheating will be involved.
Slippery slope. Where is your proof that most MLB players have cheated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1
Obviously steroids are alot worse than some guy putting a little to much pine tar on his bat but where do you draw the line on cheating. I don't like how records were broken during the steroid era but it is what it is. You can't keep a whole generation out of the hof. I doubt theres a player in the hof who never cheated to gain an edge.
I'll grant that "absence of proof is not proof of absence," but it's wrong to make unsubstantiated claims like this. I don't remember anyone accusing players like Barry Larkin (elected last year), Dave Winfield, or Gary Carter of cheating. Did Carlton Fisk ever cheat?
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:25 PM
spawn's Avatar
spawn spawn is offline
Everybody's All-American
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: My Mother's Basement, Plainfield,Il.
Posts: 11,685
Blog Entries: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
Whatever they were taking baseball didn't have a policy enforced and McGwire got caught with andro in his locker which was sold at GNC stores. I'll admit these guys deff were taking some high powered stuff but again baseball should have done something about steroids when football clamped down in the late 80's.
McGwire has admitted to taking steroids. And again, you keep glossing over the fact that it is illegal. Baseball may not have had a policy in place, but the federal government did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
With Raines it's a moral issue and I think he should be in but taking cocaine deff is a moral issue and being a moral person is one of the hof standards so he shouldn't be getting more votes than steroid users.
Ty Cobb was a racist. Cap Anson is credited with the unwritten rule of keeping blacks out of baseball. Babe Ruth was a womanizer. Lou Gehrig was an alcoholic. The HOF is littered with individuals that made decisions that could be considered morally reprehensible. They didn't use an illegal substance to give them an unfair advantage over other players. THAT'S my issue.
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:27 PM
spawn's Avatar
spawn spawn is offline
Everybody's All-American
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: My Mother's Basement, Plainfield,Il.
Posts: 11,685
Blog Entries: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
Slippery slope. Where is your proof that most MLB players have cheated?



I'll grant that "absence of proof is not proof of absence," but it's wrong to make unsubstantiated claims like this. I don't remember anyone accusing players like Barry Larkin (elected last year), Dave Winfield, or Gary Carter of cheating. Did Carlton Fisk ever cheat?
Or Andre Dawson? Ryne Sandberg? Roberto Alomar? Ernie Banks? Willie Mays? Hank Aaron? Jackie Robinson?
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:52 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Aurora Illinois
Posts: 877
Default

I feel every player you mentioned cheated in some way or another. Stealing signs, using unfair home ball park methods, doctering baseballs etc. It's not the same as steroids but it's still cheating. All i'm trying to say is every generation looks for an edge. Unfortuantly the 90's-00's players used steroids for an advantage but to keep certain players out and put certain players in doesn't make any sense to me at all because nobody really knows who used.

I do admit I do find it hard to believe that Larkin or Banks ever cheated in any way though.

This is far fetched but there actually is rumors that Babe Ruth used a drug similer to cocaine. I have no idea how true that is though.
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 01-10-2013, 09:14 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 15,772
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
This is why voters need to use common sense, Bonds more tha likely started using in 1999 after the whole Sosa/McGwire deal and he was already a hofer so comparing him to a Jack Morris career isn't using common sense. Now comparing Sosa to a Morris career is probably about right. I agree he did lose the respect of most baseball fans including me but 90 percent of that era was on roids and yeah he deff inflated his career stats but you gotta hand it to Bonds too for putting every other steroid user to shame with the numbers he put up.
Barry Bonds didn't have a Hall of Fame career before he started using steroids. If he had retired instead of signing with the Giants, he wouldn't have been elected to the Hall of Fame.

The Hall of Fame is not about the numbers, and comparing steroids to corking bats misses the point. There no doubt are players who got away with steroid use, but the ones who are remembered for unnaturally alterring muscle mass dishonestly, contrary to the spirit of the game and federal law, do not belong in the Hall of Fame.
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 01-10-2013, 10:04 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 788
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Barry Bonds didn't have a Hall of Fame career before he started using steroids. If he had retired instead of signing with the Giants, he wouldn't have been elected to the Hall of Fame.

The Hall of Fame is not about the numbers, and comparing steroids to corking bats misses the point. There no doubt are players who got away with steroid use, but the ones who are remembered for unnaturally alterring muscle mass dishonestly, contrary to the spirit of the game and federal law, do not belong in the Hall of Fame.
I must have missed the part of the game where corking bats was part of the spirit of the game.
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 01-10-2013, 10:06 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southside
Posts: 14,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Barry Bonds didn't have a Hall of Fame career before he started using steroids. If he had retired instead of signing with the Giants, he wouldn't have been elected to the Hall of Fame.

The Hall of Fame is not about the numbers, and comparing steroids to corking bats misses the point. There no doubt are players who got away with steroid use, but the ones who are remembered for unnaturally alterring muscle mass dishonestly, contrary to the spirit of the game and federal law, do not belong in the Hall of Fame.
There is actually a lot of evidence to suggest that Bonds didn't start using steroids until the start of the 1999 season where he only played 100 games due him tearing his tricep (I think) because his steroid use. Prior to the 1999 season he was the first guy to ever hit 400 HRs and steal 400 bases. Had he retired after 1998 he would have gotten in the hall still.
__________________

Go Sox!!!
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 01-10-2013, 10:43 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 17,306
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
This is far fetched but there actually is rumors that Babe Ruth used a drug similer to cocaine. I have no idea how true that is though.
Source? Information? This looks a lot like the post that was moved to the Roadhouse earlier this evening.
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 01-10-2013, 10:55 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Aurora Illinois
Posts: 877
Default

Yeah I always heard he started using roids after 1998 due to he was jealous of Sosa and McGwire getting all the media attention.

I pretty much look at the steroid era as just another part of baseball history.

1900-1920 Deadball era, very pitcher friendly.
1921-1937 huge offensive jumps due to smaller parks and the baseball was wound tighter.
1938-1960-I would say the league quality was pretty even.
1961 expansion a one year wonder for offense
1962+1976 another pitchers era but not like the 1900's
1977-1992 I would again say the league quality was pretty even
1993-2007 The steroid era. It goes without saying that it was bad for baseball but thats a whole generation erased from the hof. Bonds shouldn't take all the heat because he was the best juicer.
2008-curent...I would say the league quality is pretty even again.

I might not be perfect on years but it's I think this is pretty close.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:48 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.