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  #46  
Old 01-21-2013, 08:47 PM
mahagga73 mahagga73 is offline
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Originally Posted by DonnieDarko View Post
Please give some viable, realistic things that the White Sox can do to improve at 2B. Personally, I think that Viciedo is fine in LF, but I do agree that the White Sox need a quality backup catcher. And of course, the bench.
Yeah, I don't agree with that either. seems to be a lot of anti-Gordon around, but he does play great defense and about average at the plate or maybe a little better. Second base is not a position where there are a lot of offensive forces around. I like the middle of the field defense as it is. The Sox flubbed it up last year because their big hitters suddenly all caught chokitis at once .
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  #47  
Old 01-21-2013, 09:09 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by mahagga73 View Post
Yeah, I don't agree with that either. seems to be a lot of anti-Gordon around, but he does play great defense and about average at the plate or maybe a little better. Second base is not a position where there are a lot of offensive forces around. I like the middle of the field defense as it is. The Sox flubbed it up last year because their big hitters suddenly all caught chokitis at once .
Not even close. His OPS+ thus far has been 106, 87, 70, and 78. Thus, only his rookie year was above average and since then he has not really been close to an average hitter.
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  #48  
Old 01-22-2013, 07:26 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Not even close. His OPS+ thus far has been 106, 87, 70, and 78. Thus, only his rookie year was above average and since then he has not really been close to an average hitter.
That's compared to the whole league, though, if you look at the production other teams get from their 2B, you'll see Gordon isn't giving you much less than a league average player. Little less OBP but a lot more pop.

Now that he's making almost $3 M a year, it's a tougher pill to swallow, though. You can lived with his bat and glove for the league minimum. Probably a make or break year for Gordon's tenure in Chicago especially if Carlos Sanchez has another nice year on the farm.
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  #49  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:52 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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I'm OK with a holding pattern for Beckham, Flowers and Viciedo for a half season as long as we also acquire bench players who can step in if they falter to a similar level this year as last.

Sadly, this would have been the best offseason to move Beckham and Viciedo, as their value either will go lower (and salaries higher) with similar levels of plate performance this year as last or they'll do just enough for the Sox to keep them, turning into below average to average players at above average salaries.

IMO, none of the three are quality options going forward. On a post-Konerko and post-Rios roster, we need better (and short of Flowers), more cost-effective talent at all three positions. My biggest nightmare is running out Dunn, Viciedo and Flowers as our power bats: the low average, all or nothing strikeout kings.
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  #50  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:55 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
On a post-Konerko and post-Rios roster, we need better and short of Flowers, more cost-effective talent at all three positions. My biggest nightmare is keeping Dunn, Viciedo and Flowers as our power bats, the strikeout kings.
Adam and Alex's contracts both expire after 2014
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  #51  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:58 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Adam and Alex's contracts both expire after 2014
I wrongly though Rios was this a FA after this year. Looks like it's not only 2014, but the Sox have a club option on Rios for 2015.
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  #52  
Old 01-22-2013, 09:04 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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2008 says hello
My bad. He did post a 3.84 era in a season four years ago.

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Adjusting to the league makes their career Era's different by either. 03 or. 28. Yeah, that's substantial.
Yeah, and I think that's nonsense. Floyd has a career 4.46 ERA and Sanchez has a 3.75. Yeah, their whips are similar but the difference is in how they get them. Sanchez walks more guys but gets more strikeouts. Floyd simply gives up more hits with less K's, which explains why his ERA is higher.

Just to be clear, Sanchez's career ERA is better than Floyd's best single season ERA. Sanchez's ERA in American League parks is still better than Floyd's career ERA. They are not the same pitcher. Do not fool yourself into thinking GM's believe them equals. Floyd is not getting the deal Sanchez got this offseason. Gavin's got value if we decided to trade him, but he's not worth nearly as much as Sanchez would be with the same contract.
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  #53  
Old 01-22-2013, 10:13 AM
johnnyg83 johnnyg83 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Terrible Bullpen.
based on what?
ERA WHIP
Lindstrom 2.68 1.255
Veal 1.30 0.692
Thornton 3.46 1.231
Crain 2.44 1.083
Santiago 3.33 1.336
Reed 4.75 1.364
N. Jones 2.39 1.381

Reed's number are disconcerting -- I think/hope he'll be better, but I'm delighted otherwise top to bottom.

Last edited by johnnyg83; 01-22-2013 at 10:25 AM.
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  #54  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:38 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Not even close. His OPS+ thus far has been 106, 87, 70, and 78. Thus, only his rookie year was above average and since then he has not really been close to an average hitter.
I don't believe a strict reading of OPS is applicable to every hitter. Nellie Fox, Red Schoendienst, Jim Gilliam, Bill Mazeroski, and Frank White are all second basemen retiring with an OPS under 100. I'd gladly take any one of them on my team. I don't want to start another old stat, new stat/ youngblood, old fart argument. I just think you have to take all stats in context. I will agree with you that Beckham has been seriously wanting at the plate after showing early promise as a rookie. Time runs out on him this year and the team really needs him to be up to the challenge.
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  #55  
Old 01-22-2013, 01:01 PM
mahagga73 mahagga73 is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I don't believe a strict reading of OPS is applicable to every hitter. Nellie Fox, Red Schoendienst, Jim Gilliam, Bill Mazeroski, and Frank White are all second basemen retiring with an OPS under 100. I'd gladly take any one of them on my team. I don't want to start another old stat, new stat/ youngblood, old fart argument. I just think you have to take all stats in context. I will agree with you that Beckham has been seriously wanting at the plate after showing early promise as a rookie. Time runs out on him this year and the team really needs him to be up to the challenge.
They still haven't corrected that hitch in his swing. He is way too slow catching up to any kind of fastball belt up . Seems like it takes him ten minutes to actually swing. Too many holes in it. The only pitches he ever hammers are off speed. Plus he will swing at anything. He's a mental mess up there it looks like.
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  #56  
Old 01-22-2013, 01:03 PM
mahagga73 mahagga73 is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I don't believe a strict reading of OPS is applicable to every hitter. Nellie Fox, Red Schoendienst, Jim Gilliam, Bill Mazeroski, and Frank White are all second basemen retiring with an OPS under 100. I'd gladly take any one of them on my team. I don't want to start another old stat, new stat/ youngblood, old fart argument. I just think you have to take all stats in context. I will agree with you that Beckham has been seriously wanting at the plate after showing early promise as a rookie. Time runs out on him this year and the team really needs him to be up to the challenge.
Was Mazeroski really HOF material? I hear people like Bill James call him the best defensive player ever and others say he was such a mediocre hitter it overshadowed his defense. I'm sure the WS ending homer helped him immensely , but not even being born yet I obviously never saw him play.
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  #57  
Old 01-22-2013, 01:13 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Mahagga:

Maz was adequate as a hitter but his forte (not Matt!) was his defense.

He was blindly quick on relay throws working a double play in large part because over time he developed the ability to "catch" the ball from the shortstop or 3rd baseman literally on the outside of his glove... basically cradling it between the outside of the pocket and his hand. Then he fired to first.

Just amazing and shaved precious tenths of a second off the relay.

Lip
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  #58  
Old 01-22-2013, 02:23 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by mahagga73 View Post
Was Mazeroski really HOF material? I hear people like Bill James call him the best defensive player ever and others say he was such a mediocre hitter it overshadowed his defense. I'm sure the WS ending homer helped him immensely , but not even being born yet I obviously never saw him play.
I didn't say he was. I just said that I'd take on my team any of those 2bmen I mentioned. Maz was a marvel on defense, particularly turning the DP, as LM stated.
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