Sox Trade Possibilities, Part II

[spawn]

I find it amusing that munch cites losing AJ offensively will hurt this team, and in the same breath saying Rios hit outside of his norms and will regress. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't AJ just do the same thing? So you're saying Rios will regress offensively, but AJ won't? Not saying Rios won't regress. I'll wait until he starts swinging a bat to make that determination, but there is also no guarantee, had AJ re-signed, that he would duplicate his offensive production from last season.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by blandman

And only for like the 90th time this thread!

Well, you keep making these ludicrous statements, so...

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by blandman

Keppinger is a decent to bad defensive 2B. He's atrocious at 3rd. He should be playing first, really. But guys without elite sticks tend to be thrown around the infield and labeled utility. And then teams like us sign them as everyday players at their worst position.

Well, I hold your opinion pretty much worthless, but I'll have to take it as I've never really seen Keppinger play much in the field and don't know for myself, but I have a very hard time believing he'll be much worse off than Youkilis last year who was too beat up by the end of the season to do much of anything.

I will point out that in his career, Keppinger's RF/9 at 3B is 2.59, which is essentially the league average 3B over that time (2.62) and much better than Youkilis's RF/9 with the Sox last season, 2.33. But I'm assuming only players on the Tigers can be expected to maintain or exceed their career norms.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by spawn

I find it amusing that munch cites losing AJ offensively will hurt this team, and in the same breath saying Rios hit outside of his norms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't AJ just do the same thing? So you're saying Rios will regress offensively, but AJ won't? Not saying Rios won't regress. I'll wait until he starts swinging a bat to make that determination, but there is also no guarantee, had AJ re-signed, that he would duplicate his offensive production from last season.

The problem is that in order to even be just as good as last year, you have to have bats that will replace their production from last year. The White Sox made matters worse than simply resigning AJ (who only took one year!). Now instead of regression from AJ, they're going from one end of the spectrum to the other, instituting a black hole in the lineup.

There are things we could do to improve the offense. I just get the sense that people are content. Which, I believe, is pretty ridiculous. We are going to need to pitch a lot of shutouts to stay competitive if this is our lineup.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Well, I hold your opinion pretty much worthless, but I'll have to take it as I've never really seen Keppinger play much in the field and don't know for myself, but I have a very hard time believing he'll be much worse off than Youkilis last year who was too beat up by the end of the season to do much of anything.

I will point out that in his career, Keppinger's RF/9 at 3B is 2.59, which is essentially the league average 3B over that time (2.62) and much better than Youkilis's RF/9 with the Sox last season, 2.33. But I'm assuming only players on the Tigers can be expected to maintain or exceed their career norms.

Thanks?

Well, in his last five years as an infielder, he's been worth -177 runs to his team defensively. To be fair, he's actually a really above average defender in LF. Given our current options, if we went out and got a 3B and played Keppinger in left I'd be plenty happy with that.

Edit: sorry, that's if his numbers were for a whole year. But you get the idea.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by blandman

The problem is that in order to even be just as good as last year, you have to have bats that will replace their production from last year. The White Sox made matters worse than simply resigning AJ (who only took one year!). Now instead of regression from AJ, they're going from one end of the spectrum to the other, instituting a black hole in the lineup.

There are things we could do to improve the offense. I just get the sense that people are content. Which, I believe, is pretty ridiculous. We are going to need to pitch a lot of shutouts to stay competitive if this is our lineup.

No, I don't think people are content. Would I like the Sox to add another bat to replace the offense AJ provided? Sure. But by the same token, I'm not taking the woe is me defeatist attitude you have that this team is going to completely blow chunks because everything bad that can happen will, and there will be no individual improvements from any player on the roster. Again, if there are no more moves made, then I will reserve judgement of this team until they actually play the games.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by spawn

No, I don't think people are content. Would I like the Sox to add another bat to replace the offense AJ provided? Sure. But by the same token, I'm not taking the woe is me defeatist attitude you have that this team is going to completely blow chunks because everything bad that can happen will, and there will be no individual improvements from any player on the roster. Again, if there are no more moves made, then I will reserve judgement of this team until they actually play the games.

I guess to me that's just an extreme level of optimism that I don't find realistic in the least bit?

Sorry. Agree to disagree.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by blandman

I guess to me that's just an extreme level of optimism that I don't find realistic in the least bit?

Sorry. Agree to disagree.

What?!?! So, waiting until the games are played is an extreme level of optimism? i don't think i've stated this team was going to surprise and win the Central, nor did i state they would win 90-95 games. I'm taking a wait and see approach, not the sky is falling approach you're taking. If anyone is being extreme around here, it's you. And you wonder why no one values your opinion around here.

[SoxNation05]

Originally Posted by blandman

Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.



The bullpen is better and Reed should improve are really the same thing. I don't think the bullpen was the problem last year though, and it's debatable how a better bullpen improves us.

I like our #5 options better than Humber. Keppinger is a better stick than Morel and probably Youklis, but he's even more of a defensive black hole than Youk was. And his addition does not compensate for AJ's loss.

John Danks probably won't be 100% this year, but even if he is our big problem is offense, of which we have very little.

Why do you think Beckham will get better at the plate? He's had over 1000 plate appearances and has only regressed.

I'm fairly confident Viciedo will not improve. At least not without more time in the minors and a completely reworked approach. His problem is that he has no batting eye at all, and coupling that with a long swing that doesn't make contact very often, he's a long way from being a piece that can contribute. The league figured him out pretty quickly. Why does it take our fanbase so long? These were things scouts have said about him all along...

Reed was a liability last year. The bullpen would be lights out and Reed would blow the game. Having a closer with an ERA at 4.75 is far from acceptable. I can see that ERA drop atleast a full run, with my guess having it be around 3.00.

How is having a better bullpen "debatable" to whether it helps us? Giving up less runs, increases chances of winning.

You know little about Danks progress so do not assume. Even if offense is our problem Danks returning to form will improve the team. Would you be opposed to picking up one of your beloved Tigers' starters because "offense is our problem"?

Beckham is someone I hold irrational hope for because I think one day he is going to get his swing back together. All indications show he is a hardworker and maybe a 2nd year with Manto can work out some of the fundamental kinks.

Viciedo's issues are all about approach, as you said. His approach is attrocious so any improvement would make his stats improve. The kid is only 23 though with one full season under his belt. In that season, Dayan hit 25 home runs and hit the ball to all fields. 25 home runs is a distinction only 39 hitters held. Power is not as easily had as it once was in this post steroid era. Give Viciedo time to develop discipline and watch that vicious, powerful swing produce.

[DumpJerry]

Because of his reported lead glove defense, I think Keppinger did himself a disservice by signing with the Sox. He would have benefited greatly by playing for a team being led by a Gold Glove, All-Star Third Baseman who can show him the ropes.

Oh, wait........

[blandman]

Originally Posted by SoxNation05

Reed was a liability last year. The bullpen would be lights out and Reed would blow the game. Having a closer with an ERA at 4.75 is far from acceptable. I can see that ERA drop atleast a full run, with my guess having it be around 3.00.

How is having a better bullpen "debatable" to whether it helps us? Giving up less runs, increases chances of winning.

You know little about Danks progress so do not assume. Even if offense is our problem Danks returning to form will improve the team. Would you be opposed to picking up one of your beloved Tigers' starters because "offense is our problem"?

Beckham is someone I hold irrational hope for because I think one day he is going to get his swing back together. All indications show he is a hardworker and maybe a 2nd year with Manto can work out some of the fundamental kinks.

Viciedo's issues are all about approach, as you said. His approach is attrocious so any improvement would make his stats improve. The kid is only 23 though with one full season under his belt. In that season, Dayan hit 25 home runs and hit the ball to all fields. 25 home runs is a distinction only 39 hitters held. Power is not as easily had as it once was in this post steroid era. Give Viciedo time to develop discipline and watch that vicious, powerful swing produce.

How many blown saves did we have last year?

Swing back together? Beckham getting his swing back to when he was productive is not the problem. The problem is the LEAGUE ADJUSTED TO HIS APPROACH. His approach is based on what he is physically able to do. The ship has sailed on Beckham.

I'd feel differently on Dayan if this wasn't the book on him since the day we signed him. He's had years to adjust and has not, at any level, been able to make improvement in the areas necessary to be an everyday player.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by spawn

What?!?! So, waiting until the games are played is an extreme level of optimism? i don't think i've stated this team was going to surprise and win the Central, nor did i state they would win 90-95 games. I'm taking a wait and see approach, not the sky is falling approach you're taking. If anyone is being extreme around here, it's you. And you wonder why no one values your opinion around here.

Oh come on. There's a difference in what we're talking about. Wait and see with what we have and maybe we'll win 95 games and the Central? You might as well wait and see if Ricky Henderson decides to come out of retirement and win the triple crown. 95 wins is not even on the table. If everything goes right, I'm not sure 85 wins is on the table. This team is sorely lacking in talent at several positions. Lots still needs to be done.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by blandman

Oh come on. There's a difference in what we're talking about. Wait and see with what we have and maybe we'll win 95 games and the Central? You might as well wait and see if Ricky Henderson decides to come out of retirement and win the triple crown. 95 wins is not even on the table. If everything goes right, I'm not sure 85 wins is on the table. This team is sorely lacking in talent at several positions. Lots still needs to be done.

Yes, there is a difference in what we're talking about. My approach is reasonable. Yours is bat-**** crazy.

And you to say that if everything goes right, this team may not win 85 games? Please, enlighten us. What is your definition of "everything goes right"? Can't wait to see how this team doesn't win if everything goes right.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by spawn

Yes, there is a difference in what we're talking about. My approach is reasonable. Yours is bat-**** crazy.

You are "waiting and seeing" on something that has next to zero chance of happening. And I'm the one who's bat-**** crazy? The team looks bad on paper. It's because there's a lot of crappy ball players in key spots. That needs to be addressed, or there's a better than average chance we will be very very very bad.

[Nellie_Fox]

Since it has been brought up, I feel the need to clarify. Munch/Bland did not simply create a new account to get around a ban. Don't get the idea that people can do that. His ban was lifted and he chose to have a new account instead of his old one.