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  #61  
Old 01-30-2013, 11:31 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Nashville is waaaaaaaaaaay too small to be considered for an MLB team. ****, the MSA barely has more than 1.6 million people and that covers almost 7,000 square miles of real estate.
This subject seems to come up every several months or so. Cities are suggested as good candidates to have a MLB team. Sometimes people base this on the fact that certain cities have a successful NFL, NBA, and/or NHL team.

The problem is that it's a lot more difficult to find a metro area that can consistently support a MLB than any of the other major sports. The NHL and NBA play half as many games per season and in arenas that are about half the capacity of MLB ballparks. The NFL is wildly popular and plays only 8 home games a season.

These days, MLB teams that are average less than about 25k per game are said to have "poor attendance." That's tough to achieve night after night for a team that plays just about every single day and has 81 home games.

....and that doesn't even get into the issue of big money from local TV contracts that, more and more, are becoming a key part of teams' finances.

I don't think Nashville, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, etc. can support a team.

IMO, the Rays aren't going anywhere. MLB can piss and moan all they want, but they and/or Rays ownership signed a lease until 2027. I don't see them breaking that when they really don't have anywhere else to go. I don't think the fact that the bonds for the Trop will be paid off in 2016 makes a difference....they still have a lease and they won't break it without anywhere else to go. Maybe Montreal could work again, but they'd have to approve funding for a new MLB-only ballpark first....and I'm not holding my breath for that to happen any time soon.


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Originally Posted by ComiskeyBrewer View Post
Milwaukee's MSA is REALLY small, If you add the extra square miles to the surrounding counties, Milwaukee jumps to around 2.5 million people(with an extra 500 sq miles to spare).
Good point. Plus, Milwaukee has 50+ years of MLB history going back to the wildly popular Braves teams of the 1950s.
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  #62  
Old 01-30-2013, 03:51 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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New York supported three MLB teams for several decades. That metro area can do so again now given its larger population. Move the Rays to Brooklyn, tell the Yankees and Mets to shove it, and be done with it.
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  #63  
Old 01-30-2013, 03:58 PM
floridafan floridafan is offline
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Since I am floridafan, I feel a need to inject myself into this thread.

I have been a Rays fan since they first arrived in Florida, and up until my recent shift of allegiance to the White Sox.

I have been to the Trop many times. Poor parking, no night life, questionable adjacent neighborhoods, and a long way away from anywhere. It sits close to the end of the peninsula that is Pinellas County. Nothing to the South except Bradenton, a long ride over the Sunshine Skyway (an awesome drive with a history).

Re locating the team to downtown Tampa, or even north to where it is centrally located where 275 crosses Tampa Bay into Pinellas County would be a tremendous improvement!

An outdoor stadium with retractable roof with a classic design would be such an improvement over an indoor artificial field. It lacks so much of the traditional baseball park experience.

Baseball is extremely popular in the Tampa Bay Area. Young families and retirees as well as tourists would support a centrally located ball park much more readily than one that sits at the southern most edge of a bay with nothing but water on three sides.
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  #64  
Old 01-30-2013, 04:13 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
New York supported three MLB teams for several decades. That metro area can do so again now given its larger population. Move the Rays to Brooklyn, tell the Yankees and Mets to shove it, and be done with it.
Given how important TV $ is to team revenue, perhaps moreso than ever, I don't see that ever happening.
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  #65  
Old 02-02-2013, 11:08 PM
Deadguy Deadguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
This subject seems to come up every several months or so. Cities are suggested as good candidates to have a MLB team. Sometimes people base this on the fact that certain cities have a successful NFL, NBA, and/or NHL team.

The problem is that it's a lot more difficult to find a metro area that can consistently support a MLB than any of the other major sports. The NHL and NBA play half as many games per season and in arenas that are about half the capacity of MLB ballparks. The NFL is wildly popular and plays only 8 home games a season.

These days, MLB teams that are average less than about 25k per game are said to have "poor attendance." That's tough to achieve night after night for a team that plays just about every single day and has 81 home games.

....and that doesn't even get into the issue of big money from local TV contracts that, more and more, are becoming a key part of teams' finances.

I don't think Nashville, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, etc. can support a team.

IMO, the Rays aren't going anywhere. MLB can piss and moan all they want, but they and/or Rays ownership signed a lease until 2027. I don't see them breaking that when they really don't have anywhere else to go. I don't think the fact that the bonds for the Trop will be paid off in 2016 makes a difference....they still have a lease and they won't break it without anywhere else to go. Maybe Montreal could work again, but they'd have to approve funding for a new MLB-only ballpark first....and I'm not holding my breath for that to happen any time soon.




Good point. Plus, Milwaukee has 50+ years of MLB history going back to the wildly popular Braves teams of the 1950s.
Good post. Milwaukee is an anomaly and the attendance that they get is a testament to how great their fans are.

Most studies indicate that an MSA of 2.5 million, in addition to the presence of a large number of corporations, is need to support a MLB franchise. That eliminates almost every market that does not currently have a team, outside of Montreal.

Also, the cities that have a large number of transplants are doomed to fail (I.e. Phoenix, Miami, Tampa), since the people living there are either fans of other teams or are not going to support a local team. This is why Las Vegas is such a horrible option, in addition to the fact that it currently does not have the population to support an MLB franchise.

The last market that was truly viable for baseball was Denver, when it was awarded a franchise in the early 90s, which MLB avoided for so long for obvious reasons. After that, MLB overextended itself and moved into markets that clearly can not support MLB. Right now, contraction, Montreal, or a third NYC team (MSA 21+ million) are the best options for the Rays and the A's.
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  #66  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:01 AM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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Weren't the Expos quietly trying to move to New Jersey? I don't think the Yankees and Mets would allow another team in New York. I don't know if they have the right to keep a team out of New Jersey. I would think New Jersey could easily be a better choice for a MLB team than any other city.
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  #67  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:26 AM
Red Barchetta Red Barchetta is offline
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Originally Posted by Deadguy View Post
Good post. Milwaukee is an anomaly and the attendance that they get is a testament to how great their fans are.

Most studies indicate that an MSA of 2.5 million, in addition to the presence of a large number of corporations, is need to support a MLB franchise. That eliminates almost every market that does not currently have a team, outside of Montreal.

Also, the cities that have a large number of transplants are doomed to fail (I.e. Phoenix, Miami, Tampa), since the people living there are either fans of other teams or are not going to support a local team. This is why Las Vegas is such a horrible option, in addition to the fact that it currently does not have the population to support an MLB franchise.

The last market that was truly viable for baseball was Denver, when it was awarded a franchise in the early 90s, which MLB avoided for so long for obvious reasons. After that, MLB overextended itself and moved into markets that clearly can not support MLB. Right now, contraction, Montreal, or a third NYC team (MSA 21+ million) are the best options for the Rays and the A's.
I agree. The same can be said for the fans of the Packers. There is no way a city the size of Green Bay would be awarded a franchise in today's market. The fans of both those teams are very loyal and should be acknowledged. I know when the NFL had the Packers playing in Milwaukee on occassion, many Green Bay fans were concerned they were trying to move the team.

I remember a few people asking me if I would have become a Cub fan if the SOX would have moved to Florida and I told them I would have become a Brewer fan first. I used to go to 4-5 SOX-Brewers games in Milwaukee every season when they were in the same division. I was hoping with the recent realignment that the Royals would move to the NL Central and the Brewers would move back to the AL Central. I like the idea of Minneapolis, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee and Chicago being in the same division. Oh well, it won't happen.

Back to the Rays, people have mentioned Orlando, however I think Orlando is similar to Las Vegas in terms of tourist attendance. I eventually think the Rays are going to move to another location in Tampa Bay and probably have to work in some kind of profit sharing with the city of St. Pete.

Personally, I would like to see them move to the downtown Tampa site next to Channelside and the Times Forum and then renovate the Al Lang St. Pete area into their spring training home.
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  #68  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:10 AM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Red Barchetta View Post
I agree. The same can be said for the fans of the Packers. There is no way a city the size of Green Bay would be awarded a franchise in today's market. The fans of both those teams are very loyal and should be acknowledged. I know when the NFL had the Packers playing in Milwaukee on occassion, many Green Bay fans were concerned they were trying to move the team.

I remember a few people asking me if I would have become a Cub fan if the SOX would have moved to Florida and I told them I would have become a Brewer fan first. I used to go to 4-5 SOX-Brewers games in Milwaukee every season when they were in the same division. I was hoping with the recent realignment that the Royals would move to the NL Central and the Brewers would move back to the AL Central. I like the idea of Minneapolis, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee and Chicago being in the same division. Oh well, it won't happen.

Back to the Rays, people have mentioned Orlando, however I think Orlando is similar to Las Vegas in terms of tourist attendance. I eventually think the Rays are going to move to another location in Tampa Bay and probably have to work in some kind of profit sharing with the city of St. Pete.

Personally, I would like to see them move to the downtown Tampa site next to Channelside and the Times Forum and then renovate the Al Lang St. Pete area into their spring training home.


That's what I'm hoping for. I don't want them to leave as I watch most of their games on TV and have a soft spot in my heart for them plus we always get over to TB to see the Sox on their yearly visit.

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  #69  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:18 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by Red Barchetta View Post
I agree. The same can be said for the fans of the Packers. There is no way a city the size of Green Bay would be awarded a franchise in today's market. The fans of both those teams are very loyal and should be acknowledged. I know when the NFL had the Packers playing in Milwaukee on occassion, many Green Bay fans were concerned they were trying to move the team.
I agree, but a baseball team is the hardest sport to maintain support and attendance for, while football is the easiest. They can get 80,000 people to Green Bay on 8 sundays in the fall; 81 times throughout the year would be a much more difficult proposition. That just makes long-term support for a team like the Brewers all the more amazing, IMHO.
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  #70  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:39 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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I would like to see Montreal get a team back and your right it does make sense with the rivalrys. The idea I really like is that the Expos get back their franchise history from the Nationals. Then you could give the city of Washington their team history from the Twins. I don't think the Twins even care about their history in Washington, nor should they care. I doubt too many Arizona Cardinals fans care about the old Chicago Cardinals so why would a Twin fan care about the old Senators.
I don't see that happening. The only time I'm aware of that one of the major US sports leagues transferred franchise history to a new team was when the NFL transferred the Cleveland Browns history to the new expansion Browns that began play in 1999. I believe that was part of a lawsuit settlement with the city of Cleveland.

If I'm not mistaken, all MLB merchandise revenue is shared between the teams, so it doesn't matter to the league if Washington Senators merchandise is sold in Nationals Park and not in Minnesota or Arlington, Texas.

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Originally Posted by Golden Sox View Post
Weren't the Expos quietly trying to move to New Jersey? I don't think the Yankees and Mets would allow another team in New York. I don't know if they have the right to keep a team out of New Jersey. I would think New Jersey could easily be a better choice for a MLB team than any other city.
They do. As much as a 3rd team in the NY metro area is the best alternative, it's never going to happen because the Yankees and Mets will never let it happen.

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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
I agree, but a baseball team is the hardest sport to maintain support and attendance for, while football is the easiest. They can get 80,000 people to Green Bay on 8 sundays in the fall; 81 times throughout the year would be a much more difficult proposition. That just makes long-term support for a team like the Brewers all the more amazing, IMHO.
It seems to me that support for the Brewers really took off after they moved to Miller Park. If I remember correctly, their years at County Stadium didn't have such good attendance numbers. Maybe part of their success is thanks to having a retractable roof which makes early season days cold and/or rainy days still a good draw.

It's not like the Brewers have been wildly successful since 2001, but they have had a good amount of exciting teams and exciting players over the last decade or so. They've certainly succeed in turning a small market team into a successful franchise attendance-wise.
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  #71  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:43 AM
MUsoxfan MUsoxfan is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post



It seems to me that support for the Brewers really took off after they moved to Miller Park. If I remember correctly, their years at County Stadium didn't have such good attendance numbers. Maybe part of their success is thanks to having a retractable roof which makes early season days cold and/or rainy days still a good draw.

It's not like the Brewers have been wildly successful since 2001, but they have had a good amount of exciting teams and exciting players over the last decade or so. They've certainly succeed in turning a small market team into a successful franchise attendance-wise.
New owners have much to do with it as well
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  #72  
Old 02-04-2013, 11:05 AM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
It seems to me that support for the Brewers really took off after they moved to Miller Park. If I remember correctly, their years at County Stadium didn't have such good attendance numbers. Maybe part of their success is thanks to having a retractable roof which makes early season days cold and/or rainy days still a good draw.
The Brewers had some good years at County Stadium especially in the mid 80s with Stormin Gorman Thomas and Robin Yount leading the way.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/brewatte.shtml
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  #73  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:23 PM
Red Barchetta Red Barchetta is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
[/I][/B]

That's what I'm hoping for. I don't want them to leave as I watch most of their games on TV and have a soft spot in my heart for them plus we always get over to TB to see the Sox on their yearly visit.
The three cities that make up the greater Tampa Bay area have a history of not working well together in order to develop the region. This battle over the Rays is a perfect example. It has been proven by the lack of attendance and lack of season ticket holder sales, that a domed ballpark in downtown St. Petersburg does not work even with a winning team that reaches the World Series. No matter how much the mayer of St. Pete waives the Tropicana lease agreement in the face of the Rays ownership, nothing is going to change even if the Rays win the World Series.

I wish they could all get in a room and then look at the big picture and decide what is in the best interest of Tampa Bay. Why not work together to build a new, retractable roof, modern ballpark in downtown Tampa (Channelside) and work out a deal where St. Pete still profits from the Rays through the original lease agreement term and then fund the re-development of the Tropicana dome area into a spring training sports complex for the Rays? That way both sides come out ahead and help move the region forward.

Last edited by Red Barchetta; 02-05-2013 at 03:41 PM.
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  #74  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:26 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
The Brewers had some good years at County Stadium especially in the mid 80s with Stormin Gorman Thomas and Robin Yount leading the way.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/brewatte.shtml
That was thanks to the bump they got from the 1982 pennant-winning team. But after 1983, they were below the AL average in attendance. They drew a decent amount of people in 1987-89, but they won 91 games in '87 and finished only 2 games out in '88.

Their attendance has been much better in Miller Park, but it really took in 2007. That year was their 1st playoff contender in ages and they only finished 2 games back. After that, they made the playoffs in '08 and '11. So, success on the field has played a big part in their attendance boost.
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  #75  
Old 02-08-2013, 06:32 AM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Article in today's Tampa Tribune; St. Pete city council turns down Rays request to even explore looking for a new site. This is insane, as Red Barchetta said a few posts ago the powers to be are not working together and bottom line is that the whole area will lose the team.
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