What's it going to take to make Sox a consistent playoff team?

[gosox41]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Gosox 41:


Daver's point is also very, very valid. Money. Money solves a ton of problems, can buy your way out of a lot of situations.

I've often wondered how things might have changed in the history of the franchise if they ever had someone who could have basically unlimited funds with a desire to win at all costs.

Lip

Money helps but isn't the sole answer.

I've also fantasized about having an owner with unlimited funds as have 27 other teams in baseball.

But the stuff that has kept me up more at night is:

What if Dybzinski didn't screw up in the '83 playoffs?
What if Lamont didn't start his 20 game winner in 1993 knowing he hadn't pitched well against that team?
What if Frank were healthy enough to play 1B in the '93 playoffs?
What would of happened in 1994?
How did 1994 effect 1995-1999 for the Sox?
What if David Wells showed some heart in 2001 and actually pitched like he did in 2000?
What if Ozzie took KW's suggestion of a 6 man rotation in 2006 to ease the load on the starters? To take it one step further-how does a playoff appearance in 2006 alter the next 5 years?

As bad a move as it was, if Harrelson wasn't hired as GM of this team, we probably would have spent the last 20 some years wishing we could produce a hitter like Frank. Or for that matter, would Robin ever be a manager of this team let alone a player?


I'm sure the are more things. Didn't Cora throw to the wrong base in the '93 playoffs extending an inning for the Blue Jays? I can't remember.


Bob

[gosox41]

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

I hope you're right and I will say right now that I have absolutely no evidence to suggest that Rick would be Kenny's puppet or anything like that and to be honest the moves of this off season would suggest that Hahn isn't Kenny's puppet. It just seems to me that in previous situations like this the GM emeritus still holds most of the power, if you want to make a deal with the Cubs for example, you call Theo. Not Jed Hoyer.

I may be wrong, but I get the impression that KW wants to be more hands off and not have to deal with the grind anymore.

And people forget that the Sox spent the late '80's and '90's with a strong focus on building up a a strong farm system. KW brought a whole new level of win now aggresiveness that I've never seen this franchise have since I've been old enough to understand baseball. The same old philosohpy that people speak of here seems to be a myth. We went from a guy like Schu who was pretty solid with the farm system to KW who would do just about anything to win now.

I don't think this teams philosophy under the Reinsdor regime is stale at all.


Bob

[amsteel]

$

[dickallen15]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Gosox 41:

Well the ownership question is a moot point because sooner or later JR is going to be out of the picture and based on the latest information that he himself has made public in print and on TV, no one in his family wants to take over when he is gone.

It's going to come regardless and we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Daver's point is also very, very valid. Money. Money solves a ton of problems, can buy your way out of a lot of situations.

I've often wondered how things might have changed in the history of the franchise if they ever had someone who could have basically unlimited funds with a desire to win at all costs.

Lip

Lip,
As I told you when the article came out several years ago which stated Jerry's kids wanted no part of the "family business" that I knew someone who did business with his son, and his son would love to follow in his father's footsteps. Since then, his son has become president of the Bulls. He would love to head the Sox as well.

[DumpJerry]

Originally Posted by gosox41

Money helps but isn't the sole answer.

I've also fantasized about having an owner with unlimited funds as have 27 other teams in baseball.

But the stuff that has kept me up more at night is:

What if Dybzinski didn't screw up in the '83 playoffs?
What if Lamont didn't start his 20 game winner in 1993 knowing he hadn't pitched well against that team?
What if Frank were healthy enough to play 1B in the '93 playoffs?
What would of happened in 1994?
How did 1994 effect 1995-1999 for the Sox?
What if David Wells showed some heart in 2001 and actually pitched like he did in 2000?
What if Ozzie took KW's suggestion of a 6 man rotation in 2006 to ease the load on the starters? To take it one step further-how does a playoff appearance in 2006 alter the next 5 years?

As bad a move as it was, if Harrelson wasn't hired as GM of this team, we probably would have spent the last 20 some years wishing we could produce a hitter like Frank. Or for that matter, would Robin ever be a manager of this team let alone a player?


I'm sure the are more things. Didn't Cora throw to the wrong base in the '93 playoffs extending an inning for the Blue Jays? I can't remember.


Bob

"If" is the biggest word in the English language.

[Jollyroger2]

Originally Posted by gosox41

Money helps but isn't the sole answer.

I've also fantasized about having an owner with unlimited funds as have 27 other teams in baseball.

But the stuff that has kept me up more at night is:

What if Dybzinski didn't screw up in the '83 playoffs?
What if Lamont didn't start his 20 game winner in 1993 knowing he hadn't pitched well against that team?
What if Frank were healthy enough to play 1B in the '93 playoffs?
What would of happened in 1994?
How did 1994 effect 1995-1999 for the Sox?
What if David Wells showed some heart in 2001 and actually pitched like he did in 2000?
What if Ozzie took KW's suggestion of a 6 man rotation in 2006 to ease the load on the starters? To take it one step further-how does a playoff appearance in 2006 alter the next 5 years?

As bad a move as it was, if Harrelson wasn't hired as GM of this team, we probably would have spent the last 20 some years wishing we could produce a hitter like Frank. Or for that matter, would Robin ever be a manager of this team let alone a player?


I'm sure the are more things. Didn't Cora throw to the wrong base in the '93 playoffs extending an inning for the Blue Jays? I can't remember.


Bob

Some of those are just plain one-offs though. I mean would they really have affected the outcome of an entire season or series? The Dybzinski thing hurt but the Sox as a whole scored what, three runs in that entire series? After destroying the ball and the AL from August on? That's one of those inexplicable things with baseball. To me that was one of the most disappointing Sox teams ever. Luzinski didn't help either by guaranteeing a sweep...

Shoulda woulda, if....to me the first thing the Sox need to do is rebuild the farm system.....it's going to take years.

[Lip Man 1]

Dick:

Time will tell.

To me if his son is interested why doesn't JR just come out and say it? What's to be gained by 'hiding' that??

JR doesn't strike me as a guy who plays the intrigue factor a lot. He seems more straight forward, if his son is really interested, he'd say so.

Just my opinion.

Lip

[Paulwny]

Originally Posted by gosox41

I'm sure the are more things. Didn't Cora throw to the wrong base in the '93 playoffs extending an inning for the Blue Jays? I can't remember.


Bob

If I remember correctly, Cora was late covering 2nd on a ball hit to Ventura. Ventura then double clutched and threw to 1st, the batter beat the throw.

[Hitmen77]

As others have said, the main thing the Sox need to do is get much better at developing major league quality players through their farm system. As was discussed in a minor league thread, they haven't developed a quality major league position player since Aaron Rowand was drafted 15 years ago.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...22#post3022822

Until they get their act together in this regard, I don't see them being a consistent playoff team. Their key to success over the last decade or so is to find good players off the scrap heap. That's a useful thing to be able to do, but it can't be the cornerstone of a team's attempt to compete. The Sox have also shown a willingness to spend on veteran players at times (Dunn, Peavy, re-signing Konerko, etc.). However, this usually isn't enough to put them over the top when there is almost no organizational talent to fill the remaining holes.

The Sox are the only one of the original 16 MLB teams who have never made the playoffs in consecutive seasons. In 18 full seasons since the 3 division/wild card format started, the Sox have only made the the playoffs 3 times. Three stinking times in 18 years out of the AL Central. That's unacceptable.

Perennial playoff contenders spend money on MLB payroll AND invest in a good farm system. Sox ownership has simply not shown either a commitment or an interest in committing to both. It's been about 5 years since KW had his "shakeup" of the Sox farm system - when they hired Buddy Bell. It's been 5 years and i'm still waiting for enough of a talent core to help put this team into the playoffs.

Maybe the new CBA will change things, maybe there's talent already in the pipeline that'll burst upon the scene in a couple of years......we'll see.

In the mean time, this team is mired in 2nd or 3rd place, attendance has fizzled after 4 seasons with varying degrees of disappointment, and Sox fans bear the brunt (not from ownership, but from the media and from other fans) of not supporting an uninspiring team.

[shingo10]

The last 10 years would look a whole lot different if the Sox would play decent in August/September.

2003, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2010, and 2012 are all years in which the Sox could have legitimately been in the playoffs if not for September swoons.

I'll give a pass to 2004 because of no Thomas/Maggs but the other years were just choke jobs. If they finish those seasons out then we wouldn't need to be having this conversation.

[Lip Man 1]

Shingo:

EXCELLENT point.

Lip

[Railsplitter]

Strong pitching, strong defense, and multi-faceted offense.

[Mr. Jinx]

Spiking the bubble gum with HGH.

[Brian26]

Originally Posted by Jollyroger2

Some of those are just plain one-offs though. I mean would they really have affected the outcome of an entire season or series? The Dybzinski thing hurt but the Sox as a whole scored what, three runs in that entire series? After destroying the ball and the AL from August on? That's one of those inexplicable things with baseball. To me that was one of the most disappointing Sox teams ever. Luzinski didn't help either by guaranteeing a sweep...

Actually Dybzinski's the one tangible example of a singular play or moment on that list that probably re-writes Sox history. If Dybzinski doesn't holds up on that play, the Sox win Game 4. Hoyt wasn't going to lose in Game 5 at home. The Sox bats would have re-awakened and beat the Phillies easily.

[palehozenychicty]

Originally Posted by shingo10

The last 10 years would look a whole lot different if the Sox would play decent in August/September.

2003, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2010, and 2012 are all years in which the Sox could have legitimately been in the playoffs if not for September swoons.

I'll give a pass to 2004 because of no Thomas/Maggs but the other years were just choke jobs. If they finish those seasons out then we wouldn't need to be having this conversation.

Goes back to not having enough organizational depth and talent throughout the roster.

The team has had the fewest injuries in the game for a long time. But the roster is too thin and the starters, while solid, get tired.

I don't see it changing much until Jerry retires. Sorry.