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  #46  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:12 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Yes, but you also told us there was no possible way a butcher like Viciedo could be expected to field his position at the Major League level and all he did was go out and be one of the best defensive left fielders in the American League last year, so maybe cut the kid some slack? I'm sorry he ran over your dog, but let's try and be objective.
Yeah, despite all the wailing about Viciedo's defense, he was a clear defensive upgrade in LF over Pierre.

At the very least, I don't have to watch the opposition go first to third on singles to left field any longer.
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  #47  
Old 02-11-2013, 03:20 PM
tstrike2000 tstrike2000 is offline
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Yeah, despite all the wailing about Viciedo's defense, he was a clear defensive upgrade in LF over Pierre.

At the very least, I don't have to watch the opposition go first to third on singles to left field any longer.
Yes, not having a noodle arm in LF that allows opposing base runners to take an extra base is a nice thing to have.
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  #48  
Old 02-11-2013, 03:39 PM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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For how fast Pierre was, he really wasn't that good of a defender. It wasn't just the arm strength, it was his angles to the ball and costly drops. Let's not forget how many runs Viciedo saved by other teams opting not to send their runners home from 2nd on a single. I would expect him to improve just by adding more experience, so he can get used to tracking the ball and anticipating where it will go.
This is a do or die season for Beckham. He is still good enough defensively that at the very worst, he can be a utility man, but we really need to get more out of him.
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  #49  
Old 02-20-2013, 07:15 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
I totally agree. If they aren't significantly better hitters, then this looks like an 82-win team and Sox ownership will once again have to instruct us to "appreciate the game!"
The pitching staff still has plenty of upside, I don't think improved offense is necessarily the only route to an improved result.
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  #50  
Old 02-20-2013, 07:29 PM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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The pitching staff still has plenty of upside, I don't think improved offense is necessarily the only route to an improved result.
I agree with this. Danks is coming back nicely, and also we had more than enough rookies on the pitching staff. They had their ups and downs, and most of them, including Sale and especially Reed, hit the wall at some point. If they can get used to the physical and mental grind of the season, there's plenty of reason to believe our pitching can be among the best in the league.
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  #51  
Old 02-21-2013, 08:18 AM
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The pitching staff still has plenty of upside, I don't think improved offense is necessarily the only route to an improved result.
Agreed, the Sox actually had a decent offense in 2012; 748 RS was good enough for 4th in the AL behind only Texas (808), New York (804), and Los Angeles (767). They don't need to improve as a whole, but you're going to need certain parts to improve because, obviously, there's going to be a huge drop in production from the C position. As if going from Pierzynski to Flowers wasn't enough of a cliff, Pierzynski had a career year in 2012, too.
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  #52  
Old 02-21-2013, 08:51 AM
slavko slavko is offline
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Agreed, the Sox actually had a decent offense in 2012; 748 RS was good enough for 4th in the AL behind only Texas (808), New York (804), and Los Angeles (767). They don't need to improve as a whole, but you're going to need certain parts to improve because, obviously, there's going to be a huge drop in production from the C position. As if going from Pierzynski to Flowers wasn't enough of a cliff, Pierzynski had a career year in 2012, too.

So you're saying that if Pierzynski had stayed, there most likely would have a dropoff at C anyway? OK, it's me saying it.
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  #53  
Old 02-21-2013, 09:03 AM
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So you're saying that if Pierzynski had stayed, there most likely would have a dropoff at C anyway? OK, it's me saying it.
Yeah, but even AJ's pre-2012 career line of .284/.324/.422 is probably beyond the reach of Flowers's capabilities so the question is going to be can the Sox pick up enough offense from other guys like Dayan, Alexei, Gordon, Keppinger, Dunn, etc. to off set that loss and will Flowers's improved defense compensate for the drop in offense? C is the one spot on the field you can really, really afford to live without a bat if there's enough defense.
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  #54  
Old 02-21-2013, 09:47 AM
Moses_Scurry Moses_Scurry is online now
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Yeah, but even AJ's pre-2012 career line of .284/.324/.422 is probably beyond the reach of Flowers's capabilities so the question is going to be can the Sox pick up enough offense from other guys like Dayan, Alexei, Gordon, Keppinger, Dunn, etc. to off set that loss and will Flowers's improved defense compensate for the drop in offense? C is the one spot on the field you can really, really afford to live without a bat if there's enough defense.
Didn't Pierzynski have a career defensive year as well (at least in terms of throwing out base stealers)? Or am I just imagining things?
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  #55  
Old 02-21-2013, 10:48 AM
SoxNation05 SoxNation05 is offline
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Yeah, but even AJ's pre-2012 career line of .284/.324/.422 is probably beyond the reach of Flowers's capabilities so the question is going to be can the Sox pick up enough offense from other guys like Dayan, Alexei, Gordon, Keppinger, Dunn, etc. to off set that loss and will Flowers's improved defense compensate for the drop in offense? C is the one spot on the field you can really, really afford to live without a bat if there's enough defense.
I think a lot of AJ's value on offense was him being clutch, hitting for a high average and battling pitchers. AJ always saw a lot of pitches when he went up to the plate and did not strike out that much. While I don't think Flowers will be able to do the same, he may not be that much of a downgrade.

AJ's 2012: .279/.326 27 HR 77 RBI
Flowers 2012: .213/.296 7 HR 13 RBI

Looking at Flowers stats last year, obviously they are not impressive. At the same time, he did post an isoOBP at .083 compared to AJ's .047. I am sure everyone thinks Flowers' average will improve as he gets to play almost everyday. Considering that, if he gets his average up to say .240 and still draws walks/HBP at the same clip, he will be on base just as often as AJ. I don't think its too crazy to expect 20-25 home runs from Flowers in 120+ games.

Basically my point: If Flowers can hit .240 (maybe an arduos task) heisn't as signifcant as a downgrade as people think. When you throw in the fact that he has less wear, younger, better defensively and much cheaper, it's easy to understand why Hahn chose to let AJ go.

I know it's JR's money and I should not care but if Flowers puts up a .240/.315 with 22 HRs and above average defense, he is definitely giving more bang for the buck than AJ would have.
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  #56  
Old 02-21-2013, 10:54 AM
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For how fast Pierre was, he really wasn't that good of a defender. It wasn't just the arm strength, it was his angles to the ball and costly drops. Let's not forget how many runs Viciedo saved by other teams opting not to send their runners home from 2nd on a single. I would expect him to improve just by adding more experience, so he can get used to tracking the ball and anticipating where it will go.
This is a do or die season for Beckham. He is still good enough defensively that at the very worst, he can be a utility man, but we really need to get more out of him.
I agree that Bechkam is probably done with the Sox, at least as a starter, if he repeats prior performances this year. If Sanchez has a season similar to last year I don't think they would hesitate to plug him in at 2B and in the 9 spot.

Sanchez is a plus defender who would add speed and average to a team that lacks both. Plus, he would be homegrown and much cheaper than Beckham who is set to make 3.5 million this year.

I don't think people should be ready to toss Sanchez in this year, but if both him and Beckham repeat performances from '12, Beckham has to be done.
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  #57  
Old 02-21-2013, 12:28 PM
PorkChopExpress PorkChopExpress is offline
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Originally Posted by SoxNation05 View Post
I think a lot of AJ's value on offense was him being clutch, hitting for a high average and battling pitchers. AJ always saw a lot of pitches when he went up to the plate and did not strike out that much. While I don't think Flowers will be able to do the same, he may not be that much of a downgrade.
I'm not sure that's right. I don't think AJ sees all that many pitches. Yes, he does not strike out a lot, but that is in part because he doesn't see a lot of pitches, and he makes contact. The only guys on the team last year that saw less pitches per plate appearance than AJ were pitchers and Alexei. AJ saw 3.47 pitches per plate appearance, and the team average was 3.81. Flowers saw 4.20. Flowers will strike out more, no doubt, but he will probably see more pitches, and take more walks than AJ.
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  #58  
Old 02-21-2013, 01:35 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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I'm not sure that's right. I don't think AJ sees all that many pitches. Yes, he does not strike out a lot, but that is in part because he doesn't see a lot of pitches, and he makes contact. The only guys on the team last year that saw less pitches per plate appearance than AJ were pitchers and Alexei. AJ saw 3.47 pitches per plate appearance, and the team average was 3.81. Flowers saw 4.20. Flowers will strike out more, no doubt, but he will probably see more pitches, and take more walks than AJ.
Yup, AJ had a great year last year, but a lot of what he did so great was kind of this mystical build up from Hawk Harrelson. Not saying I didn't love AJ, I did, but this idea he was this grindy tough doing all these little things guy, not all of it is really true.

I think when you factor in what Flowers brings defensively, it will balance itself out.

I am worried mostly about regression from our pitchers. I just don't think we can expect Santiago, Quintana, Jones etc. to all be BETTER than last year because I think some of them were throwing way over their heads.

This your typical White Sox style team. They could win 75 games and it would not really shock you, or they could win 86 games and it would not really shock you. They were 4th in the league in runs last year, but built a ton of that up during 2 crazy hot stretches, they had no consistency. Hopefully this year its more balanced.
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  #59  
Old 02-21-2013, 01:42 PM
SoxNation05 SoxNation05 is offline
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Yup, AJ had a great year last year, but a lot of what he did so great was kind of this mystical build up from Hawk Harrelson. Not saying I didn't love AJ, I did, but this idea he was this grindy tough doing all these little things guy, not all of it is really true.

I think when you factor in what Flowers brings defensively, it will balance itself out.

I am worried mostly about regression from our pitchers. I just don't think we can expect Santiago, Quintana, Jones etc. to all be BETTER than last year because I think some of them were throwing way over their heads.

This your typical White Sox style team. They could win 75 games and it would not really shock you, or they could win 86 games and it would not really shock you. They were 4th in the league in runs last year, but built a ton of that up during 2 crazy hot stretches, they had no consistency. Hopefully this year its more balanced.
Great post. The glaring hole in that "4th in the league in runs" statistic was without a doubt the team's consistency.

Quintana I expect very little from. Santiago needs consistent control over the screwball and some added movement on his basically straight fastball. He won't last in our park trying to throw that straight fastball by people. I do however think Santiago has good stuff and decent potential. Jones was huge last year and no one should expect him to put up the same numbers. He may as well be a one year wonder, while I hope he's not, relievers tend to be a crapshoot.
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