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  #226  
Old 04-05-2013, 07:31 PM
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roylestillman roylestillman is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
Nothing surprises me anymore in professional sports. The Dodgers won the their first WS in 1955, 3 short years later they were in LA. Since then, anything goes.

Do the rooftop owners have a legal beef if the Cubs do put up video boards in RF and LF blocking the view?
Never saw the contract, but it sounds like the Cubs agreed not to block their view. Now block their view is open to interpretation, but money and the courts could solve everything. That spokesperson, Beth Murphy, sounds like great fun to negotiate with. Don't have much sympathy for the rooftop owners, but if they push the issue too far, potential clients could just choose not to use them.
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  #227  
Old 04-05-2013, 07:35 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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What makes you think the Chicago area doesn't have enough fans to support 2 city ballparks? What defines a city ballpark? Flushing is right on the limits of NYC and Citi Field is surrounded by parking lots.

The Cub "stranglehold" is because of marketing their old ballpark. The Sox attendance rises and falls with the quality of the team, just like the vast majority of other MLB franchises. There is no reason to think that Chicago can't support the White Sox in the city when they've been in the same neighborhood longer than any other team in baseball.
Can the Sox draw better in the burbs without a consistent winning team? I think they could but cant prove it.(The brewers have been doing it) Can the Sox draw without a consistent winning team where they are at? No, thats been proven.

No one will be proven right or wrong in this discussion because so many things will change if and when change ever happens. The bottom line is the Sox management are doing very well in the situation they are in now. I am sure they are extremely happy with the worth of their club increasing by leaps and bounds in current years. I am sure they have no regrets in where the park is currently because thats where they got the deal of the century.

It was an enjoyable what if discussion.
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  #228  
Old 04-05-2013, 07:48 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Can the Sox draw better in the burbs without a consistent winning team? I think they could but cant prove it.(The brewers have been doing it) Can the Sox draw without a consistent winning team where they are at? No, thats been proven.

No one will be proven right or wrong in this discussion because so many things will change if and when change ever happens. The bottom line is the Sox management are doing very well in the situation they are in now. I am sure they are extremely happy with the worth of their club increasing by leaps and bounds in current years. I am sure they have no regrets in where the park is currently because thats where they got the deal of the century.

It was an enjoyable what if discussion.
It's on 200 acres surrounded by parking lots, but Miller Park is not in a suburb.
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  #229  
Old 04-05-2013, 07:56 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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It's on 200 acres surrounded by parking lots, but Miller Park is not in a suburb.
Only 2.5 miles from downtown Milwaukee.
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Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 04-05-2013 at 08:05 PM.
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  #230  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:01 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Only 2.5 miles from downtown Milwaukee.
How far from West Allis and Wauwatosa? Its not a city like park.
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  #231  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:17 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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How far from West Allis and Wauwatosa? Its not a city like park.
It's near the border of West Allis.

Many city ballparks are not really in tune with their neighborhoods in that sense. USCF would obviously be one. But many others also come to mind: Citi Field, Dodger Stadium, Citizens Bank Park, Oakland Coliseum, and Turner Field.
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  #232  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:44 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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IMO, park location isn't keeping suburban families away. In fact, I would guess that the parking lots vs. Wrigleyville neighborhood thing evens out for them. Some will be drawn to Wrigleyville's atmosphere while others will find that the parking availability at the Cell is more family friendly. Really, the ultimate problem is that there are just so many more Cubs fans than Sox fans out there. There are plenty of suburban Cubs fans who hardly go to any games because of cost, distance, accessibility, time constraints, etc. They are no different than Sox fans in this regard. But when you have a huge fanbase to begin with that includes a big following from all over the Midwest thanks to years on WGN, the tourist crowd, etc., the Cubs aren't quiet as reliant on getting every suburban fan to come out to a ton of games as the Sox are.
That says it best for me. The tide began to turn in 1967 when the Cubs began their mini revival under Leo Durocher and the Sox hitless wonders couldn't seal the deal. After the 84 season the Cubs really began to pull away and have lapped the Sox many times over in the fan department since then. The Sox haven't helped themselves over the years with one PR and business gaffe after another. Now the situation is such that the Sox have to put out a consistent winner in order to start reversing the situation. They have failed in that regard.
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  #233  
Old 04-05-2013, 10:00 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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That says it best for me. The tide began to turn in 1967 when the Cubs began their mini revival under Leo Durocher and the Sox hitless wonders couldn't seal the deal. After the 84 season the Cubs really began to pull away and have lapped the Sox many times over in the fan department since then. The Sox haven't helped themselves over the years with one PR and business gaffe after another. Now the situation is such that the Sox have to put out a consistent winner in order to start reversing the situation. They have failed in that regard.
It's not like the Sox are unique in that regard. That's true for most every team. The Cubs just got very, very lucky.
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  #234  
Old 04-06-2013, 12:17 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
The product was in first for 100 plus days last year and could not draw 2 million. You are going to say the prices were too high and I agree but someone said all the high rollers have moved back to the city, they sure as hell didn't spend their money at USCF.
I feel like the argument over last year's attendance has been beaten to death. You can't just look at that 100 or so days in a vacuum. After 3 previous seasons of disappointment which caused season ticket/advance sale erosion, they simply weren't going to flip that switch and pack the park every night with a 3 month run of success. Remember, we were coming off the awful 2011 Ozzie-quitting-on-his-team debacle at the start of last year plus KW was implicitly telling the fans last off season that the Sox weren't serious about competing in 2012 when they hired a manager with zero professional coaching experience for on-the-job training.

These points are constantly pointed out and yet we continue to beat the dead horse of last year's attendance over and over again.
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  #235  
Old 04-06-2013, 07:45 AM
jdm2662 jdm2662 is offline
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I feel like the argument over last year's attendance has been beaten to death. You can't just look at that 100 or so days in a vacuum. After 3 previous seasons of disappointment which caused season ticket/advance sale erosion, they simply weren't going to flip that switch and pack the park every night with a 3 month run of success. Remember, we were coming off the awful 2011 Ozzie-quitting-on-his-team debacle at the start of last year plus KW was implicitly telling the fans last off season that the Sox weren't serious about competing in 2012 when they hired a manager with zero professional coaching experience for on-the-job training.

These points are constantly pointed out and yet we continue to beat the dead horse of last year's attendance over and over again.
Some people are never going to get it. 20,000 aren't just going to wake up and flock to the ballpark. If advanced ticket sales are very low, you aren't going to get a lot of people.

There was a game in early April on a Sunday a coupe of years ago. There was no lake breeze, either. 23K was the announced attendance. Sure, the nice day attracted SOME people (like myself and wife), but the park wasn't magically going to be full. In 2007, the Sox lost 90 games, but drew 2.7K. Those tickets were sold in advance. It's really not that hard to grasp. Since Sox tickets are so easy to get, I have no motivation to buy tickets in advance.
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  #236  
Old 04-06-2013, 07:50 AM
jdm2662 jdm2662 is offline
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....let me put it another way. I have a family and live out in western DuPage. I try to go to about 5 games a year....some years it turns out to be less than that. Sorry, life is busy. But, when I talk about time constraints, etc. that keep me from going to more games, I get accused of "making excuses" for not going to more games even from fellow Sox fans on WSI (this is not aimed at anyone or any post in this thread, but it has happened before in past years in other threads).

However, where I live, I am surrounded by a large majority of Cubs fan families and many of them maybe go to 1 or 2 games and some don't necessarily go every year. They have the same reasons as I do: time constraints, cost, etc. I've have never heard anyone question their loyalty or support of their team. EVER. Being a fan of a popular team that has a huge fan base and draws huge crowds makes them "great fans" even if they hardly go to any games. I, on the other hand, have to often defend the support of my team - even to fellow Sox fans - despite my efforts to go to at least a handful of games every year. Go figure.
What's funny is when Cubs fan say this very thing, I ask them how many games they went to last year, the year before, etc. Each time, I always end up going to more games than them. Hell, I went to five last year despite the fact we had a baby born the day before the Sox's home opener.
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  #237  
Old 04-06-2013, 08:30 AM
jdm2662 jdm2662 is offline
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More people live in the burbs than in the city. That's a fact. Bridgeport is not the center of anything as just to the east is 100 miles of lake.
Looking at a map of the Metro area I would say that Elmhurst is probably the population center of the metro area with an equal amount of people living north, south, east and west. This is a guess but I bet I'm not far off. A stadium located around I 294 and I 290 would not be a bad spot. The CTA could extend the line that runs on the Ike.
Hillside is called the hub of the suburbs for a reason. I lived by 290/294/88 by St. Charles for much of my life. We just moved from one side of the bridge to the other in the late 90s. My Mom still lives in Elmhurst. In my 20s, I probably would've been a season ticket holder. Since I still live only ten mins. from the proposed land, I probably would still venture to the ballpark more. But, I'm one person. Had the ballpark been built where Dave and Busters now is, they probably wouldn't be drawing much more than they do now.

Had they built the park there, they probably would be trying to get back into city ten years later. By the late 90s, it was cool to be in the city again. I never bought into this, but lots of 20 somethings did. The casual fan always makes a difference at the gate. I saw plenty of them in 2006. Us die-hards don't like it, but that's how it is.

Quite honestly, I never found traffic around the ballpark be that big of a deal. Of course, I probably been there so many times, I know my way around.
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  #238  
Old 04-06-2013, 02:09 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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And haven't come close since.
Because the team hasn't been nearly as good since, either.
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  #239  
Old 04-06-2013, 03:23 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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It's not like the Sox are unique in that regard. That's true for most every team. The Cubs just got very, very lucky.
Of course it's true for almost every team but the Sox are a distant second in a two team area and that makes it all the more difficult for them. Yes the Cubs are very lucky for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is all they need to do is show up at home for every game to draw 3 million or so fans.
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  #240  
Old 04-06-2013, 05:41 PM
Dan H Dan H is offline
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That says it best for me. The tide began to turn in 1967 when the Cubs began their mini revival under Leo Durocher and the Sox hitless wonders couldn't seal the deal. After the 84 season the Cubs really began to pull away and have lapped the Sox many times over in the fan department since then. The Sox haven't helped themselves over the years with one PR and business gaffe after another. Now the situation is such that the Sox have to put out a consistent winner in order to start reversing the situation. They have failed in that regard.
I agree with this completely. But I must say I think the Cubs bubble is getting ready to burst and there are cracks in it already. They still out draw the Sox but there are more and more no-shows. I know one Cub fan who is still somewhat delusional and half believes that the current rebuild will net a World Series. But he limits himself to attending one game a year. The guy is near retirement age and has not experienced a World Series as a Cub fan. He is tired of the constant failure and Wrigley Field is not enough to draw him out more than once a year.
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