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  #31  
Old 05-13-2013, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
If you put salary and longevity aside and judge only on the numbers, I think among our position players, only Rios, Alexei and Gillaspie could start for any other teams. Beckham is a premium fielder; I hope he continues to hit when he returns.
Beckham would start for more teams than people admit, he's an above average defender who plays a position that doesn't exactly have premium offensive talent. His production is generally average for the AL at his position.
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  #32  
Old 05-13-2013, 08:36 AM
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More impressive... Sale's pitching performance or Dayan drawing TWO walks in one game?
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  #33  
Old 05-13-2013, 08:41 AM
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Beckham would start for more teams than people admit, he's an above average defender who plays a position that doesn't exactly have premium offensive talent. His production is generally average for the AL at his position.
Of course he would, and it is obvious when you look at the other 2nd baseman starting on MLB teams. Only a woe-is-us outlook or abject pessimism would prevent a Sox fan from seeing the obvious.
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  #34  
Old 05-13-2013, 09:09 AM
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Did anyone read Toni Ginnetti's game story in the Sun-Times? You would never have known that Sale pitched as well as he did.

I know it was a night game and maybe the Times has earlier Sunday night deadlines, but Toni's piece focused on Konerko and really didn't mention much about Sale.

What time was her deadline? 8 PM? Not very good.
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  #35  
Old 05-13-2013, 09:17 AM
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Trib seemed to have an early deadline, too. Is deadline typically earlier on Sundays? The game started the same time a weeknight game would've, and those always make the paper.
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  #36  
Old 05-13-2013, 09:26 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Beckham would start for more teams than people admit, he's an above average defender who plays a position that doesn't exactly have premium offensive talent. His production is generally average for the AL at his position.
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
Of course he would, and it is obvious when you look at the other 2nd baseman starting on MLB teams. Only a woe-is-us outlook or abject pessimism would prevent a Sox fan from seeing the obvious.
I wasn't ripping on Beckham; his injury keeps him from starting for anyone right now.

Pauline's longevity would earn him a starting spot on many teams, but his current performance doesn't warrant it.
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  #37  
Old 05-13-2013, 09:29 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Pauline's longevity would earn him a starting spot on many teams, but his current performance doesn't warrant it.
...
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  #38  
Old 05-13-2013, 09:48 AM
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If John Danks comes back and pitches well this White Sox pitching staff can really become dominant. Dominant enough to get us into the playoffs. The problem still seems to be with the hitting. Hahn has to get us a couple more hitters. I don't know how he's going to do it. But unless we get a couple more hitters we'll be watching the 2013 playoffs on TV.
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  #39  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:30 AM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Beckham would start for more teams than people admit, he's an above average defender who plays a position that doesn't exactly have premium offensive talent. His production is generally average for the AL at his position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asindc View Post
Of course he would, and it is obvious when you look at the other 2nd baseman starting on MLB teams. Only a woe-is-us outlook or abject pessimism would prevent a Sox fan from seeing the obvious.
I have a hard time seeing Beckham as anything but below average, even in this era of reduced offense as compared to years past.

Last season Beckham ranked just off the bottom of MLB 2B in most measures.

For those with 300+ PA, he ranked 26th of 39 in OPS. Tied for 30th of 39 in WAR (at .3, with Stephen Lambardozzi of the Nats and Brandon Inge).

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting...OPS/order/true

I hope this is the last season that Gordon Beckham is a full-time starter with the Sox.
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  #40  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
I have a hard time seeing Beckham as anything but below average, even in this era of reduced offense as compared to years past.

Last season Beckham ranked just off the bottom of MLB 2B in most measures.

For those with 300+ PA, he ranked 26th of 39 in OPS. Tied for 30th of 39 in WAR (at .3, with Stephen Lambardozzi of the Nats and Brandon Inge).

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting...OPS/order/true

I hope this is the last season that Gordon Beckham is a full-time starter with the Sox.
Those stats don't mention defense at all, which is part of my equation, especially for a middle infielder.
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  #41  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:49 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Those stats don't mention defense at all, which is part of my equation, especially for a middle infielder.
I think he was addressing double's post about Beckham being "mostly average" offensively, which just isn't the case. The only thing Beckham leads the league in is apologists. I can live with Beckham, but he hits like ****.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #42  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:49 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
I have a hard time seeing Beckham as anything but below average, even in this era of reduced offense as compared to years past.

Last season Beckham ranked just off the bottom of MLB 2B in most measures.

For those with 300+ PA, he ranked 26th of 39 in OPS. Tied for 30th of 39 in WAR (at .3, with Stephen Lambardozzi of the Nats and Brandon Inge).

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting...OPS/order/true

I hope this is the last season that Gordon Beckham is a full-time starter with the Sox.
Beckham's 2012 slash line: .234/.312/.381
2012 AL Average 2B slash line: .250/.311/.374

Maybe he does come in a little under the average among full-time players since I suspect a lot of 2B end up getting platooned to hide their relative offensive weaknesses, but essentially you will get the average 2B over the course of 162 games out of Gordon Beckham. 2B is just not a premier offensive position. I, too, hope the Sox are soon able to move on from Beckham, but I think the laundry list of problems with this team precludes that. No sense in making another hole... for now.
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  #43  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:53 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Beckham's 2012 slash line: .234/.312/.381
2012 AL Average 2B slash line: .250/.311/.374
For a stats guy, that seems like a flawed way to view the numbers. Those numbers include back ups and AAAA players. Comparing his numbers with other starters is more relevant.
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  #44  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:56 AM
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That's an ace right there.
Absolutely right!

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Kid is some kind of pitcher, plus he had to overcome almost zero offense again . . . Hope he can stay healthy and productive and the Sox figure out a way to build a great team around him.

Lip
That would be outstanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
If you put salary and longevity aside and judge only on the numbers, I think among our position players, only Rios, Alexei and Gillaspie could start for any other teams. Beckham is a premium fielder; I hope he continues to hit when he returns.
No, I think Beckham would. And Viciedo, too. And probably Konerko. I say probably because his prolonged slump may be just that -- a slump -- or it may indicate some decline. We just don't know yet.

The Sox need an upgrade in CF, C and DH, for sure. Maybe 1B, too. The Sox have some salary coming off the books after 2013 and maybe can address these problems. It would be really nice if Dunn could get hot for a while and the Sox could deal him. Don't know how likely that is.

Anyway, for a gem of a ballgame last night,

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  #45  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:59 AM
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For a stats guy, that seems like a flawed way to view the numbers. Those numbers include back ups and AAAA players. Comparing his numbers with other starters is more relevant.
Um, no? "Average AL" means average across the AL, it doesn't mean "cherry picking players to make the stats fit the anser you have already supposed."

Beckham will give you average production from the 2B position offensively. You're free to take that for what it's worth.

If you want to argue he's below median, I can live with that but then it gets a little tricky as to how you're going to define offensive production amongst players.

Last edited by doublem23; 05-13-2013 at 11:09 AM.
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