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  #46  
Old 05-13-2013, 11:00 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by StillMissOzzie View Post
I assume that it was because CJ Wilson is a tough lefty, and not because Venture suddenly had a wave of inspiration to bench him against righties, too.

Yes, sheer domination by Sale, with a masterpiece. But, was I the only one who had a shudder of fear that he'd lose a heartbreaker 1-0 as soon as the perfecto was broken up?
Nice to see some 2-out RBIs for a change, even though the Sox had already stranded scads on the bases to that point, along with the usual pathetic hitting with RISP through the first six innings.

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Ozzie:

I know what you mean...kid goes into the 7th inning pitching a perfect game and doesn't even have a one run cushion.

Reminds me of the story where Drysdale was sent ahead on a road trip because he had to pitch the next day and met the Dodgers at the hotel when they got in. He asked how the team did and was told "Koufax pitched a shutout..."

Drysdale replied, "did we win?"



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  #47  
Old 05-13-2013, 11:32 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Um, no? "Average AL" means average across the AL, it doesn't mean "cherry picking players to make the stats fit the anser you have already supposed."

Beckham will give you average production from the 2B position offensively. You're free to take that for what it's worth.

If you want to argue he's below median, I can live with that but then it gets a little tricky as to how you're going to define offensive production amongst players.
It's cherry picking to compare him to other starters? Good Lord.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #48  
Old 05-13-2013, 11:34 AM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Um, no? "Average AL" means average across the AL, it doesn't mean "cherry picking players to make the stats fit the anser you have already supposed."

Beckham will give you average production from the 2B position offensively. You're free to take that for what it's worth.

If you want to argue he's below median, I can live with that but then it gets a little tricky as to how you're going to define offensive production amongst players.
He ranked last year in the bottom third of starting 2B. You said you don't want to make another hole. My point is just that Beckham is already one of the many holes in the Sox lineup.

Of course, that doesn't mean finding the right replacement is easy. One of the many 2B who was better at the plate last year was Jeff Keppinger.
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  #49  
Old 05-13-2013, 12:00 PM
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Is C.J. Wilson gonna tell his dealership employees about this impressive performance he couldn't match?
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  #50  
Old 05-13-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
It's cherry picking to compare him to other starters? Good Lord.


Do you not understand what the term "average" means?
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  #51  
Old 05-13-2013, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
He ranked last year in the bottom third of starting 2B. You said you don't want to make another hole. My point is just that Beckham is already one of the many holes in the Sox lineup.

Of course, that doesn't mean finding the right replacement is easy. One of the many 2B who was better at the plate last year was Jeff Keppinger.
But I'm telling you he's really not, if you're only comparing him to specific individuals in the league you miss out on some very relevant information, specifically that there's a slew of teams in the league that don't even have a player as good as Beckham who can take 500 PA at 2B and deliver the kind of results he did at the plate. Again, I'm not saying he's anything special, just saying he gives you an average AL 2B production. I know that's not what we expected of him when he was drafted and was an up and coming phenom, but it is what it is.
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  #52  
Old 05-13-2013, 12:26 PM
Paulwny Paulwny is offline
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Originally Posted by vinny View Post
I was having visions of Harvey Haddix even before Trout's hit.

I was having the very same thoughts.
I was also wondering how long Ventura would leave him in the game if a no hitter went into extra innings.
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  #53  
Old 05-13-2013, 12:45 PM
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I was having the very same thoughts.
I was also wondering how long Ventura would leave him in the game if a no hitter went into extra innings.
Yeah, I was wondering that too around the sixth inning. What would have happened if Sale had retired 27 straight batters, but the game wasn't over yet because the Sox didn't score? Do you send a guy out for the 10th on a cold night in May?

I'll bet Ventura is glad he didn't have to make that decision.
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  #54  
Old 05-13-2013, 12:47 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post


Do you not understand what the term "average" means?
He's not average. He ranked in the bottom third among his peers. You want to compare to replacement level players or starters?
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  #55  
Old 05-13-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
He's not average. He ranked in the bottom third among his peers. You want to compare to replacement level players or starters?
I want to compare to all players who played 2B in the AL last year. That is how the "average" of something works.

Again, if you only take the players that accrued 550 or whatever PA at the position last year, you leave out a lot of information, specifically that there were several teams that didn't have a 2B as good as Beckham to eat that much playing time at the position. That's just as valuable as comparing Beckham's line to guys like Pedroia or Cano. It's why OPS+, ERA+, or WAR all take into account ALL players who played in a given season, not just the ones that reached the magic 3.1 PA/G or IP/tmG marks, because yes, there it is more worthwhile to judge a player against the entire sum of his peers, not just the top.
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  #56  
Old 05-13-2013, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
Those stats don't mention defense at all, which is part of my equation, especially for a middle infielder.
I think the stats don't mention a lot of things Beckham does to help the White Sox win. The White Sox are a better team with Gordon Beckham at second base. I think losing Beckham is a major reason the Sox have a losing record, at least as big as losing Viciedo and bigger than losing Floyd. That really isn't saying much because the Sox are only winning three winnable losses away from having a winning record. They are only winning five winnable losses away from being in first place. Poor play, usually out of the bullpen and/or on defense in the late innings has led to more than five winnable losses and even the first place team has winnable losses that they would love to do over and take out of the loss column. Still, as poorly as the White Sox have been at scoring runs this year, they aren't so far away from contending in the AL Central.

I think Beckham makes the defense much better. On most teams, the shortstop is the de facto captain of the defense, but Ramirez doesn't seem to be a leader on the field, playing better when Beckham is out there. On some, the catcher if the leader of the defense. From what I've seen, a major factor in the White Sox defensive problems this year compared with last year is losing both Beckham and Pierzynski on defense.

That seems true on offense as well. It is also true that Flowers hasn't replaced Pierzynski's offense, although Pierzynski is now sidelined with the Rangers. But Keppinger hasn't provided the offense that you would expect out of Beckham, and certainly wasn't providing the offense Beckham did on the first homestand before he was injured in the first game of the first roadtrip. Gillaspie, non the other hand, has pretty much provided the offense from third base that the Sox probably expected out of Keppinger.

As for last night's game, I didn't have a chance to watch it, but going over the play-by-play, it looks like Sale pitched an incredible game, comparable to Kerry Wood's 20 strikeout game if you consider that he didn't hit anyone and didn't have to work nearly as heard to get the same result. Sort of makes me optimistic that Sale could be remembered for a great career instead of a great game, the way Kerry Wood and Phil Humber are. Third one-hit shutout pitched in the majors in a week, although technically the one pitched against the White Sox wasn't a complete-game shutout because Harvey didn't get a decision, not pitching the complete game.
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  #57  
Old 05-13-2013, 01:09 PM
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ChiSoxGal85 ChiSoxGal85 is offline
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Yeah, I was wondering that too around the sixth inning. What would have happened if Sale had retired 27 straight batters, but the game wasn't over yet because the Sox didn't score? Do you send a guy out for the 10th on a cold night in May?

I'll bet Ventura is glad he didn't have to make that decision.
Sale finished with 98 pitches; I could have seen him going out for one more inning if it was around that. If I'm Robin, and Sale is perfect through 9 and the Sox haven't scored, I send Sale out for the 10th. And simultaneously I grumble at the offense for not getting the job done.
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  #58  
Old 05-13-2013, 01:13 PM
Huisj Huisj is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I want to compare to all players who played 2B in the AL last year. That is how the "average" of something works.

Again, if you only take the players that accrued 550 or whatever PA at the position last year, you leave out a lot of information, specifically that there were several teams that didn't have a 2B as good as Beckham to eat that much playing time at the position. That's just as valuable as comparing Beckham's line to guys like Pedroia or Cano. It's why OPS+, ERA+, or WAR all take into account ALL players who played in a given season, not just the ones that reached the magic 3.1 PA/G or IP/tmG marks, because yes, there it is more worthwhile to judge a player against the entire sum of his peers, not just the top.
I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at how a guy compares to other starters around the league. When you compare pitchers, you compare starters to starters, closers to closers, and middle guys to middle guys. You don't say a starter is below average because there were 50 middle relievers who had a lower ERA and higher K/9 rate.

So if you picked, say, five teams in a division, and you wanted to know how each team's main second baseman compared to those on the other teams, you'd just look at the five starters. If instead you want to look at total production that each team got out of the second base position, you could include the utility guys who played some games at 2B.

But why get mad at a guy for comparing a player to other players who are in the same position (in this case, starting second basemen)?

Basically, there's a difference between comparing a player to another player and comparing a team's positional production to another teams positional production. They are both useful in their own way.
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  #59  
Old 05-13-2013, 01:28 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by Huisj View Post
I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at how a guy compares to other starters around the league. When you compare pitchers, you compare starters to starters, closers to closers, and middle guys to middle guys. You don't say a starter is below average because there were 50 middle relievers who had a lower ERA and higher K/9 rate.

So if you picked, say, five teams in a division, and you wanted to know how each team's main second baseman compared to those on the other teams, you'd just look at the five starters. If instead you want to look at total production that each team got out of the second base position, you could include the utility guys who played some games at 2B.

But why get mad at a guy for comparing a player to other players who are in the same position (in this case, starting second basemen)?

Basically, there's a difference between comparing a player to another player and comparing a team's positional production to another teams positional production. They are both useful in their own way.
I used 300 PA and I think that's reasonable, as it takes into account what Doub is so worried about. Last season there were about 40 guys in MLB at 2B with that many PA. Beckham was better than about a third of them.

I think the Sox can do better than having an all-field, no-hit guy at 2B.
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  #60  
Old 05-13-2013, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Huisj View Post
I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at how a guy compares to other starters around the league. When you compare pitchers, you compare starters to starters, closers to closers, and middle guys to middle guys. You don't say a starter is below average because there were 50 middle relievers who had a lower ERA and higher K/9 rate.
Right, you're right, that's what I'm doing. Just like you would compare SP to SP, I'm comparing Beckham (a 2B) to other 2B. I'm not saying he's average across the league, I'm saying he's average for his position.

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Originally Posted by Huisj View Post
So if you picked, say, five teams in a division, and you wanted to know how each team's main second baseman compared to those on the other teams, you'd just look at the five starters. If instead you want to look at total production that each team got out of the second base position, you could include the utility guys who played some games at 2B.
OK, but if say, 1/3 of the league doesn't have a regular everyday 2B then who are you comparing to? Somebody has to fill those at bats.

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But why get mad at a guy for comparing a player to other players who are in the same position (in this case, starting second basemen)?
I'm not mad at him for comparing Beckham to whomever he wants, I just hate having to explain the same ****ing thing three times in a row.

If you want to limit yourself to just the 9 2B who last season qualified by hitting the 3.1 PA/G mark and therefore are "everyday" players, then you'd only be looking at approximately 5,362 plate appearances. 2B accrued 9,458 plate appearances in 2012, so you're essentially ignoring 45% of the league which explains how a guy like Beckham, who can be at the lower run of the "everyday starter" list can still essentially put up a league average 2B line; because even though he's not going to be an All Star, approximately 1/2 the time, an AL team is going to plug in some journeyman, AAAA player into the 2B role and yes, that is statistically significant, so having a guy who will give you his production for 582 plate appearance is still (wait for it)... league average for his position.

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Originally Posted by Huisj View Post
Basically, there's a difference between comparing a player to another player and comparing a team's positional production to another teams positional production. They are both useful in their own way.
Yes, that's all true, but I will disagree with the notion that comparing a guy to his position's total production is still worthwhile because, as I've demonstrated, not every team is going to have an MLB-quality, everyday starting player at all 9 positions. Comparison's on a league-wide basis are still valid and valuable.
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