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  #61  
Old 05-13-2013, 01:54 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
I used 300 PA and I think that's reasonable, as it takes into account what Doub is so worried about. Last season there were about 40 guys in MLB at 2B with that many PA. Beckham was better than about a third of them.

I think the Sox can do better than having an all-field, no-hit guy at 2B.
300 PA is nothing, though, that's not even 1/2 a season for an everyday player, even if you're getting high quality production from a guy for 300 PA you still have to find someone to eat the other 300 PA, and that's probably going to be a journeyman, AAAA type utility infielder. And I'm guessing that when added up, the 300 PA of above average starter level play and 300 PA of AAAA player production will essentially just shoot out what Gordon Beckham does. AKA... League average.
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  #62  
Old 05-13-2013, 01:58 PM
Huisj Huisj is offline
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Is there an easy site that can sort the stats of utility guys and part-time players to get what their stats or worth were at a certain position? For example, if you look up 2B stats from last year on ESPN, you get that Keppinger was the 7th best by WAR in the AL. He had 385 at-bats, but only played 27 games at 2B. Does he rate ahead of Beckham for last year if you just look at what he did at 2B, or are you going on his whole 385 at-bat season?
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  #63  
Old 05-13-2013, 02:01 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
I used 300 PA and I think that's reasonable, as it takes into account what Doub is so worried about. Last season there were about 40 guys in MLB at 2B with that many PA. Beckham was better than about a third of them.

I think the Sox can do better than having an all-field, no-hit guy at 2B.
I'm much more concerned with CF (De Aza is a 4th/5th OF- not a starter), 3B (Gillaspie is a nice prospect, but unproven, and his AAA stats are not "great"), 1B (Konerko looks like age is finally catching up with him), DH (Dunn is epically horrible) and catcher (leading the league in past balls while hitting < .200).

So Beckham is 6th on my priority list for what needs to be fixed-
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  #64  
Old 05-13-2013, 02:02 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
300 PA is nothing, though, that's not even 1/2 a season for an everyday player, even if you're getting high quality production from a guy for 300 PA you still have to find someone to eat the other 300 PA, and that's probably going to be a journeyman, AAAA type utility infielder. And I'm guessing that when added up, the 300 PA of above average starter level play and 300 PA of AAAA player production will essentially just shoot out what Gordon Beckham does. AKA... League average.
So you first complain about using only qualified starters at the position, as IIRC there were only 21 of those in MLB last year.

Then you complain about there being too many using a lower PA threshold.

Is there some magic number in-between?

I look around MLB and I would take more than half of starting 2B over Gordon Beckham. As shown, I think he's in the bottom third of starting 2B in MLB.
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  #65  
Old 05-13-2013, 02:06 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
I'm much more concerned with CF (De Aza is a 4th/5th OF- not a starter), 3B (Gillaspie is a nice prospect, but unproven, and his AAA stats are not "great"), 1B (Konerko looks like age is finally catching up with him), DH (Dunn is epically horrible) and catcher (leading the league in past balls while hitting < .200).

So Beckham is 6th on my priority list for what needs to be fixed-
I think De Aza is better than Beckham. I think C, DH and SS are just as bad right now. Konerko will have to be replaced in the long-term, as well. Unfortunately Beckham has quite a bit of competition on the Sox in terms of being a liability at the plate.
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  #66  
Old 05-13-2013, 02:09 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
So you first complain about using only qualified starters at the position, as IIRC there were only 21 of those in MLB last year.

Then you complain about there being too many using a lower PA threshold.

Is there some magic number in-between?

I look around MLB and I would take more than half of starting 2B over Gordon Beckham. As shown, I think he's in the bottom third of starting 2B in MLB.
I'm not complaining about anything, my position has been pretty firm, when you start throwing in arbitrary lines as to who qualifies as a "real" 2B and who doesn't, you start arbitrarily eliminating data so you're only hope is to compare players against the entire league. So even if there are 21 qualified 2B in the league and Beckham is in the bottom 2/3rd of that group, that still means 9 teams didn't even have a player good enough to qualify for the position, so we're still talking about a guy who gives the Sox better production that what? 12-15 teams in baseball? Sounds like an average player for his position to me.
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  #67  
Old 05-13-2013, 02:14 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Ozzie:

I know what you mean...kid goes into the 7th inning pitching a perfect game and doesn't even have a one run cushion.

Reminds me of the story where Drysdale was sent ahead on a road trip because he had to pitch the next day and met the Dodgers at the hotel when they got in. He asked how the team did and was told "Koufax pitched a shutout..."

Drysdale replied, "did we win?"



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That was also a regular occurrence with 1967 White Sox with Horlen, Peters and Tommy John.
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  #68  
Old 05-13-2013, 02:25 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I'm not complaining about anything, my position has been pretty firm, when you start throwing in arbitrary lines as to who qualifies as a "real" 2B and who doesn't, you start arbitrarily eliminating data so you're only hope is to compare players against the entire league. So even if there are 21 qualified 2B in the league and Beckham is in the bottom 2/3rd of that group, that still means 9 teams didn't even have a player good enough to qualify for the position, so we're still talking about a guy who gives the Sox better production that what? 12-15 teams in baseball? Sounds like an average player for his position to me.
Fair enough. At 2B I'd rather have:

Cano, Pedroia, Hill, Utley, Walker, Scutaro, Phillips, Kinsler, Altuve, Murphy, Kendrick, Espinosa, Kipnis, Carpenter, and Zobrist (getting about a 1/3 of his PT this year at 2B).

That's 15 guys of 30 teams, and average would be half.

That says nothing of prospects I would rather have over Beckham, like Wong or Gyorko.
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  #69  
Old 05-13-2013, 02:30 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Fair enough. At 2B I'd rather have:

Cano, Pedroia, Hill, Utley, Walker, Scutaro, Phillips, Kinsler, Altuve, Murphy, Kendrick, Espinosa, Kipnis, Carpenter, and Zobrist (getting about a 1/3 of his PT this year at 2B).

That's 15 guys of 30 teams, and average would be half.

That says nothing of prospects I would rather have over Beckham, like Wong or Gyorko.
Coming into the season, you might have rather had Keppinger.
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  #70  
Old 05-13-2013, 03:15 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Coming into the season, you might have rather had Keppinger.
True, as I alluded to earlier. I don't think Beckham is our answer at 2B, but I also don't know how to answer that particular question.
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  #71  
Old 05-13-2013, 03:29 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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True, as I alluded to earlier. I don't think Beckham is our answer at 2B, but I also don't know how to answer that particular question.
Beckham is a stopgap. You can live with him because he's a pretty good defender and has some pop. You certainly don't want to pay him though. At least 2nd base is the one place we may have some legit prospects.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #72  
Old 05-13-2013, 03:36 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Beckham would start for more teams than people admit, he's an above average defender who plays a position that doesn't exactly have premium offensive talent. His production is generally average for the AL at his position.
Agree
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  #73  
Old 05-13-2013, 03:39 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
More impressive... Sale's pitching performance or Dayan drawing TWO walks in one game?
Should have been 3. He Kd on one ball 4.
He's going to be able to walk a lot. Teams won't give him much to hit with all of the stiffs on this team.
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  #74  
Old 05-13-2013, 04:05 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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...
Damn iPhone autocorrect
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  #75  
Old 05-13-2013, 04:17 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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True, as I alluded to earlier. I don't think Beckham is our answer at 2B, but I also don't know how to answer that particular question.
It all depends on how much he's getting paid. When he was making league minimum, then he's fine. Now that he's getting paid a shade under $3 million, that production becomes a concern. He was hitting a little better before he broke his wrist, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he's turned the corner? Because I am a crazy person.

But I think this is a real do or die year for Gordon. Unfortunately, Carlos Sanchez is off to a pretty miserable start in AAA.
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