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  #31  
Old 05-20-2013, 11:47 AM
24thStFan 24thStFan is offline
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Originally Posted by kufram View Post
Sure, I'd like to win the division more often and always make the playoffs but we don't and I don't think it is necessarily anyone's fault.... it is just very hard to do given the circumstances.
True, but for approximately the last decade, the AL Central had the potential to be dominated by the Sox. I"m just disappointed that we lost an opportunity to become a perennial winner, and maybe also to own a better market position in Chicago.

I know it's no use crying over spilt milk, but it is frustrating to watch. Let's hope the Sox get it together and start winning.
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  #32  
Old 05-20-2013, 12:10 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Golden:

As someone else wrote in another thread it's not just the fact that the Sox are only six games out. That's not a big deal, that's do-able. It's the fact that there are four teams ahead of them in the division.

Because those teams play each other so often someone has to win, not all four teams are going to go in the tank.

Also the Sox second half schedule gets a hell of a lot tougher. 18 games with Detroit, games with the Yankees, and a 10 game road trip in late August / early September to Boston, the Yankees and Baltimore.

Those are grounds for concern.

Lip
In addition to 6 games out and behind 4 teams in the standings, the other big problem is that this White Sox team isn't very good. It's not like we're talking about waiting for a talent-laden team to snap out of a funk. This team is a few games below .500 and that's probably about right based on who is on the roster.


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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Nell:

I've been around this community (WSI) since I started writing for it in 2002.

I can't recall any period where there appears to be less interest in the team than the past few years. I mean look at the post game threads for one example.

Like Kittle said yesterday: "White Sox baseball 2013: Even the die hards don't care anymore..."

Lip
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Originally Posted by Milw View Post
I'm known in my social circle as "Mr. White Sox" (even to other Sox fans). Even I'm having trouble caring about this team. If they're losing people like me, they need to blow it up. I don't mean just the team on the field, I mean top to bottom. Hahn can stay, because he hasn't really gotten a fair shake yet, but pretty much everybody else needs to go. This franchise is at its lowest point since probably 1999.
At least they had a promising, exciting young core of talent in 1999. This might be the most un-interesting Sox team since 1988.

There are a few bright spots (Chris Sale is definitely one), but the team is generally mediocre and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of minor league talent to look forward to in the near future.
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  #33  
Old 05-20-2013, 12:35 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by SephClone89 View Post
Big name free agent signings rarely work out, and that era is quite possibly over.

Also, every time the Sox do make a "big market" move, (Peavy trade, Dunn signing) people complain, too. Kobayashi Maru for the front office.
The problem with the Dunn signing has been his abysmal performance since joining the team. It has nothing to do with whether "people complained" about the signing.
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  #34  
Old 05-20-2013, 01:32 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Oh good, I thought this stupid argument couldn't have been any less interesting except now I see we're linking to things like "Noozebox?" (SOUNDS TOTALLY LEGIT), so there's always another nadir, I guess.
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  #35  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:10 PM
Milw Milw is offline
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Originally Posted by 24thStFan View Post
IMHO the Sox have never acted like a big market team by signing a BIG NAME free agent STAR. If we had one now (e.g., Upton, Wright, etc.) perhaps there would be more "casual fan" interest in this team. Instead we signed Adam Dunn and Jeff Keppinger.

It's a shame the Chicago White Sox have a small market mentality, because we could have dominated the Central division for the last 10 years. Instead we abdicated to Detroit...yes, freaking Detroit!
Adam Dunn was "a BIG NAME free agent STAR" when the Sox signed him. He was indisputably the biggest name on the market that winter. He has sucked since then, but it's just not fair to say the Sox don't sign big name free agents. Moreover, the Sox for the past seven years or so have consistently been in the top five in the AL in payroll.

And I know it's going back a ways at this point, but Albert Belle was a HUGE deal when he was signed.

This franchise absolutely has a habit of half-assing things. But spending on payroll really hasn't been the issue.
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  #36  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:11 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Nell:

I've been around this community (WSI) since I started writing for it in 2002.

I can't recall any period where there appears to be less interest in the team than the past few years. I mean look at the post game threads for one example.
Yeah, but does that have to do with lack of interest in the Sox, or lack of interest in WSI? The board guidelines are fairly stringent, and it seems like members have drifted away from the site over time as a result.
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  #37  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:12 PM
Moses_Scurry Moses_Scurry is online now
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
At least they had a promising, exciting young core of talent in 1999. This might be the most un-interesting Sox team since 1988.

There are a few bright spots (Chris Sale is definitely one), but the team is generally mediocre and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of minor league talent to look forward to in the near future.
I disagree with this. To me, this year feels a lot like 1999. I don't if I would call guys like Jim Parque, Mike Sirtoka, Mike Caruso, etc. all that exciting if I put my mind in my 1999 self. It isn't that much different than Santiago, Quintana, Nate Jones, Addison Reed et al that we have now. It only feels like it was a more exciting core because of what happened in 2000. I remember things being bleak as hell in the late '90's. Plus, Thomas appeared to be on a downward trajectory in the late '90's. 2000 was his triumphant comeback year.

To me, 2000 is an example of why it doesn't pay to forecast doom and gloom (or greatness) more than 1 or 2 seasons out. Too much can happen. Thomas had one of his best years in 2000, Cal frickin' Eldred had a first half worthy of a Cy Young, Wunch-Howry-Foulke were automatic in the pen, Baldwin had his best year, and the team won the division pretty easily. There's no reason it can't happen again. However, I would much rather not have to rely on being so lucky.

Sale and Peavy are better than any starting pitcher they had in the late '90's/early '00's.
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  #38  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:28 PM
Milw Milw is offline
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Originally Posted by Moses_Scurry View Post
I disagree with this. To me, this year feels a lot like 1999. I don't if I would call guys like Jim Parque, Mike Sirtoka, Mike Caruso, etc. all that exciting if I put my mind in my 1999 self. It isn't that much different than Santiago, Quintana, Nate Jones, Addison Reed et al that we have now. It only feels like it was a more exciting core because of what happened in 2000. I remember things being bleak as hell in the late '90's.
I was the one who made the 1999 reference, but to be fair, that team did have Magglio and Carlos Lee, not to mention rookie of the year contender Chris Singleton. And Konerko, while nobody could have guessed he would become the franchise icon that he has, did hit 24 HRs that year.

But I haven't felt this much apathy in the fanbase and the city towards the Sox since 1999. Thankfully we don't have nearly the attendance woes we had back then--20,000 was considered a great crowd--but the malaise and general disinterest is palpable and comparable.
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  #39  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:29 PM
24thStFan 24thStFan is offline
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Originally Posted by Milw View Post
Moreover, the Sox for the past seven years or so have consistently been in the top five in the AL in payroll.

This franchise absolutely has a habit of half-assing things. But spending on payroll really hasn't been the issue.
In 2012 the Sox ranked 11th in total payroll behind markets like Milwaukee, Detroit, and St. Louis. In addition the difference between the team with the highest payroll (surprise, the Yankees) and the Sox was over $100 million.

My point is the Sox don't behave like a big market team. We're cheap and now we're suffering the consequences.
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  #40  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:42 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Yeah, but does that have to do with lack of interest in the Sox, or lack of interest in WSI? The board guidelines are fairly stringent, and it seems like members have drifted away from the site over time as a result.
Vulture:

I'm sure that as well as some other things from what I've been told, have played a part but I still feel the biggest reason for the decline is the mediocrity over the past four / five seasons.

Lip
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  #41  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:47 PM
Milw Milw is offline
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Originally Posted by 24thStFan View Post
In 2012 the Sox ranked 11th in total payroll behind markets like Milwaukee, Detroit, and St. Louis. In addition the difference between the team with the highest payroll (surprise, the Yankees) and the Sox was over $100 million.

My point is the Sox don't behave like a big market team. We're cheap and now we're suffering the consequences.
Of the teams that had a higher payroll than the Sox last year, only Milwaukee, Detroit and St. Louis could be considered small markets. Milwaukee outspent the Sox by a whopping $700,000; St. Louis was coming off a World Series championship; and Detroit, well, they should be commended for spending.

You neglected to note the teams the Sox outspent last year: the Cubs, Mets and Dodgers; the NL Central champion Reds; the NL East champion Nationals; the AL West champion A's; and wild card qualifiers Orioles and Braves.

Yeah, I wish the Sox would spend more. Of course. But spending WISELY is a much higher priority.
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  #42  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:53 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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I wonder if winning the WS after the initial spike, has actually hurt the White Sox long term. Fans aren't impressed with being in first place every day for a few months, 85-90 win seasons are considered huge failures. There is no doubt the Sox should have taken advantage of all the advantages they have had over their AL Central counterparts over the years, and they did not.

People rip Boyer, but really, he is in a position right now where he cannot succeed. There are no promotions that are going to dramatically improve the gate. There is no ad campaign that will do it either. It's easy to point a finger at him and his crew, but there is no one who is pointing a finger that actually has an answer as to something that makes sense and will work. The team has to be a powerhouse. That's not on the marketing department.
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  #43  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:57 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Moses_Scurry View Post
I disagree with this. To me, this year feels a lot like 1999. I don't if I would call guys like Jim Parque, Mike Sirtoka, Mike Caruso, etc. all that exciting if I put my mind in my 1999 self. It isn't that much different than Santiago, Quintana, Nate Jones, Addison Reed et al that we have now. It only feels like it was a more exciting core because of what happened in 2000. I remember things being bleak as hell in the late '90's. Plus, Thomas appeared to be on a downward trajectory in the late '90's. 2000 was his triumphant comeback year.
Well, neither would I, but I never said I was talking about those 3 guys. I'm talking about Konerko, Ordonez, and Lee.

I'm not saying I had a blast watching the Sox during the '99 season - it was definitely a bad year, but those 3 guys did form a solid core of young talent that gave me hope for better days to come (and I thought so even before 2000). Other than Chris Sale, I don't see anyone even close to the caliber of those guys this year. Peavy and Rios are good, but they're both in their 30s and aren't exactly the future of this team.

I'm not disputing that the late 90s were a bleak time - it was fresh off the white flag trade and the '94 strike was still fresh in peoples memories. It was also a pre-renovation "New Comiskey" that looked much worse than the park does today. People whine about the neighbor around the Cell today, but things were much worse 15 years ago. Overall, the Sox were much, much less relevant in Chicago in 1999 than they are today.

....but all that being said, i'd still say the team on the field this year is less interesting to me than the 1999 team.
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  #44  
Old 05-20-2013, 03:54 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by Milw View Post
But I haven't felt this much apathy in the fanbase and the city towards the Sox since 1999. Thankfully we don't have nearly the attendance woes we had back then--20,000 was considered a great crowd--but the malaise and general disinterest is palpable and comparable.
I think people might be exaggerating a bit about the disinterest being on par with the late 90s teams. The Sox results in the paper would sometimes be back by the horse racing section in those days. As you pointed out, the crowds are larger now and I'm willing to bet that the TV ratings are better than they were back in the 90s too. Now, that's not to say the Sox don't have some issues.

Besides the mediocre start by the team, I think there is a general lack of interest in baseball right now in Chicago that is hurting both teams. (Yes, even the mighty Cubs have taken a hit on attendance and ratings) Both Chicago teams are doing poorly on the field and are struggling to grab any sort of buzz or headlines with the Blackhawks making their run to the cup and the Bulls having a high profile playoff run. Bears practices get more coverage lately than baseball. The biggest baseball story of 2013 in Chicago has been the political battle over Wrigley renovations. Just five years ago in 2008, baseball was king in this town. Both teams were in first place and the buzz for both clubs was at the highest I could remember. I guess everything goes in cycles and is often tied to success on the field.
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  #45  
Old 05-20-2013, 03:57 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
I wonder if winning the WS after the initial spike, has actually hurt the White Sox long term. Fans aren't impressed with being in first place every day for a few months, 85-90 win seasons are considered huge failures. There is no doubt the Sox should have taken advantage of all the advantages they have had over their AL Central counterparts over the years, and they did not.

People rip Boyer, but really, he is in a position right now where he cannot succeed. There are no promotions that are going to dramatically improve the gate. There is no ad campaign that will do it either. It's easy to point a finger at him and his crew, but there is no one who is pointing a finger that actually has an answer as to something that makes sense and will work. The team has to be a powerhouse. That's not on the marketing department.
Last year's attendance was the lowest since before the WS championship.....but it still beats out the attendance total of every single season between the 1994 strike and 2004. (I have no idea how TV ratings compare).

So, I'd say the WS win is still good for the Sox. I don't think it's the raised expectations that is the problem with this franchise. It's that this year is 5 years since the last Sox playoff appearance and not much reason to believe that things will change any time soon.
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