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  #61  
Old 06-21-2013, 03:31 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
No way do I trade Sale. What for? So I can get a prospect who hopefully becomes half the pitcher Sale is when I have Sale wrapped up at a reasonable rate until 2019? If the Sox can't rebuild by 2019, I don't think trading Sale is going to help much.

The Sox can trade Rios, Crain, Reed, maaaaybbeee Konerko if he hits well over the next few weeks. They might even be able to trade Lindstrom or Thornton for a decent prospect if some teams are desperate for bullpen depth. That's a decent start, along with Floyd coming off the books. The Sox will have a lot of payroll available over the next two years, I just don't see the point in trading Sale.
You trade him because contending is 1/2 a decade away, if we do a complete makeover. If we're not competing, watching him pitch 115 innings for Ventura doesn't net us much.
We'd get about 3 elite prospects for him.
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  #62  
Old 06-21-2013, 03:40 PM
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Somebody has to explain to me why anyone actually thinks the Sox are going to do the complete tear down and rebuild model?
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  #63  
Old 06-21-2013, 03:41 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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I need 2 impact players for Sale. True aces are too valuable and I believe he can be one of the few.
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Originally Posted by shoota
I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #64  
Old 06-21-2013, 04:08 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Somebody has to explain to me why anyone actually thinks the Sox are going to do the complete tear down and rebuild model?
Why? Because we don't have a single position player after this year, either on the ML team or in the high minors, who could be considered an above average hitter. It's tough to patch that.

Do I think we will do a total rebuild? No
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  #65  
Old 06-21-2013, 04:16 PM
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Why? Because we don't have a single position player after this year, either on the ML team or in the high minors, who could be considered an above average hitter. It's tough to patch that.

Do I think we will do a total rebuild? No
Oh, I get the reasoning why people think we should do the whole tear down and rebuild, not that I necessarily agree, but I understand the argument.

I'm just saying, the Sox front office are never going go for that. May as well spend your time and energy on the realm of the possible, otherwise, we can discuss how many more HR the guys will hit if we moved the team to the Moon.
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  #66  
Old 06-21-2013, 04:58 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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The last time the Sox were this bad was 2007- and this year might be even worse- BUT, 2007 was only 2 years removed from the 2005 World Series- so attendance was still OK and the fan base was willing to be patient, etc.

The last 3.5 months of this season could mark the lowest point of this franchise since 1999- how LOW the attendance gets in the 2nd half could be a real wake up call.
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  #67  
Old 06-21-2013, 05:17 PM
soltrain21 soltrain21 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
The last time the Sox were this bad was 2007- and this year might be even worse- BUT, 2007 was only 2 years removed from the 2005 World Series- so attendance was still OK and the fan base was willing to be patient, etc.

The last 3.5 months of this season could mark the lowest point of this franchise since 1999- how LOW the attendance gets in the 2nd half could be a real wake up call.
2007 had injuries and a bad bullpen. Bullpens can be fixed year to year.

What this team is...? Yeah, it's gonna take a while.
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  #68  
Old 06-21-2013, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I have a feeling Crain is a guy we are going to get more for now than in July. Take the Red Sox for example, Bailey just lost the closing job, Hanranhan is hurt, they need a closer. Even if Tazawa (spelling?!) does well, who takes his spot? Crain makes a lot of sense there.
Unless Papilbon is their choice which is a strong rumor in New England right now.
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  #69  
Old 06-21-2013, 05:30 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Somebody has to explain to me why anyone actually thinks the Sox are going to do the complete tear down and rebuild model?
Because we're beyond the point where stubbornness shows itself to be stupidity. All these years of being jealous of the Cubs...now we're in danger of becoming them. Five+ year serious rebuild is the BEST option. Going and handing out contracts this offseason would be devastating. You think a total rebuild is bad? Ask a Cubs fan what decades upon decades of throwing money at bad teams leads to.

As bad as our management has become, they couldn't possibly be that stupid. Right? Right?
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  #70  
Old 06-21-2013, 05:37 PM
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RCWHITESOX RCWHITESOX is offline
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Originally Posted by RockJock07 View Post
Yeah, I drive Sale to the airport for that trade. Even if they offered Profar and Olt i'd do it. I think Sale is awesome but in the back of mind I wonder if his arm is a house of cards ready to fall at any minute.
Pitching is the hardest to come by; and no way should the Sox trade away a #1 starter for prospects. Profar or Olt might turn out to be great or just as easy turn out to be average or less. For every Mike Trout there are hundreds of Brian Andersons. I would rather see them keep Sale and Peavy and go after a CF like Bourjos and move Ramirez and Viciedo who have a hard time keeping their heads in the game. True this team has a lot of holes but trading your 2 or 3 best pitchers makes no sense. (Sale, Peavy, and Reed ). Trading Crain,Thornton,Konerko, for prospects makes sense; and trying to move Dunn and Danks contracts are a good starting point.
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  #71  
Old 06-21-2013, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RCWHITESOX View Post
Pitching is the hardest to come by; and no way should the Sox trade away a #1 starter for prospects. Profar or Olt might turn out to be great or just as easy turn out to be average or less. For every Mike Trout there are hundreds of Brian Andersons. I would rather see them keep Sale and Peavy and go after a CF like Bourjos and move Ramirez and Viciedo who have a hard time keeping their heads in the game. True this team has a lot of holes but trading your 2 or 3 best pitchers makes no sense. (Sale, Peavy, and Reed ). Trading Crain,Thornton,Konerko, for prospects makes sense; and trying to move Dunn and Danks contracts are a good starting point.
If we want to get good prospects, we have to trade good players. Crain might get us something in return, but I seriously doubt Thornton and Konerko, or Ramirez or Viciedo (maybe Alexei, as I think he still has some value) will. A contending Sox team is probably at least a few years away, thus I think it makes sense to move veterans whose window is perhaps not open that much longer. That's why I think dealing Rios and Peavy makes sense, and moving Sale and/or Reed does not (though I wouldn't be terribly upset to see Addison dealt, as I don't think he's an elite closer or anything like that).
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  #72  
Old 06-21-2013, 05:46 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
This assumes that

1. Without trading Sale we can rebuild in time for his contract to still be valuable (since every rebuilding year his cost is an unnecessary expense)

2. Sale remains effective for that long

3. Sale defies the book on himself and doesn't suffer a career-ending/altering injury.

Those are all things the White Sox really need to look at. Just when will we be ready again? Is it worth paying tens of millions to Sale if we're not competing, especially given the lack of guarantee with his health?

He's got the most value on the team, and he's got the highest value he'll probably ever have. If you don't trade him now, it's quite likely you'll regret it.
I don't have a problem trading Sale. However, I think your logic is wrong. If the "book" on Sale says a career ending/altering injury is coming, then other teams are not going to value him that high. He will be looked at as a short term solution and will not return the value of a Number 1 starter. So the Sox are better holding on to him and if he is till pitching effectively in 2-3 years the "book" will have a different ending and his value will be much higher.
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  #73  
Old 06-21-2013, 06:48 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
I don't have a problem trading Sale. However, I think your logic is wrong. If the "book" on Sale says a career ending/altering injury is coming, then other teams are not going to value him that high. He will be looked at as a short term solution and will not return the value of a Number 1 starter. So the Sox are better holding on to him and if he is till pitching effectively in 2-3 years the "book" will have a different ending and his value will be much higher.
The only problem with that is if he gets injured, you essentially get nothing out of him, only the tens of millions spent on his contract. It would be different if we were competing, but since we're not...
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  #74  
Old 06-21-2013, 07:17 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is online now
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Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
I don't have a problem trading Sale. However, I think your logic is wrong. If the "book" on Sale says a career ending/altering injury is coming, then other teams are not going to value him that high. He will be looked at as a short term solution and will not return the value of a Number 1 starter. So the Sox are better holding on to him and if he is till pitching effectively in 2-3 years the "book" will have a different ending and his value will be much higher.
Not really. If you plan on a total rebuild, with the current state of the Sox system, you are looking at 5 years of meaningless games. The question is where will Sale be physically and performance wise when you are ready to compete again? It would be Silly having him on the roster if there was no chance to win. Every pitcher is a ticking time bomb. Especially him. I hope the Sox re-tool, and not re-build. The pitching is there to compete if the hang on to it, and they should be in decent shape to pick up a couple of hitters, but if tearing it down is what they decide to do, trading Sale is probably the most logical move they could make. Projecting any pitcher 5 or 6 years from now is difficult, Chris Sale especially.
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  #75  
Old 06-21-2013, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
Not really. If you plan on a total rebuild, with the current state of the Sox system, you are looking at 5 years of meaningless games. The question is where will Sale be physically and performance wise when you are ready to compete again? It would be Silly having him on the roster if there was no chance to win. Every pitcher is a ticking time bomb. Especially him. I hope the Sox re-tool, and not re-build. The pitching is there to compete if the hang on to it, and they should be in decent shape to pick up a couple of hitters, but if tearing it down is what they decide to do, trading Sale is probably the most logical move they could make. Projecting any pitcher 5 or 6 years from now is difficult, Chris Sale especially.
What I hope is they can bring in some prospects to re-build the farm system by dealing away some of their older players, then sign some short-term talent in the offseason to hold them over until those younger players develop. The plus is pitching is the strength of this organization, and there is plenty of payroll flexibility going forward, as they have no bad long-term contracts. If we can plug in just some league-average players at a few positions, I think they contend in a couple years.
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