Rebuilding the White Sox

[blandman]

Quintana uses a variation on a 3/4 motion to hide the baseball before he throws it.

The guy has a 88-91 fastball that's straight that he can place decently, a cutter that he doesn't spot that well, a curve that's probably his only average pitch, and a change that is below average. Eventually, the league will see him enough to get used to they way he's coming to the plate. And when that happens, it's going to be over for him.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

There's nothing wrong with Quintana's stuff. I like both he and Santiago's arms. Neither has a devastating out pitch, but they both throw hard and are learning to pitch. I don't like the screwball, but Santiago misses a lot of bats with it.

There is nothing wrong with Santiago being at the bottom of your rotation. The problem is there's only one bottom of your rotation.

[rdivaldi]

Originally Posted by Stanley

You suggesting we go "ALL IN" again?

(yes, I know that's not going to happen)

I think that pretty much sums up my stance.

Originally Posted by Stanley

Throwing money at Adam Dunn is a big part of what got us in this mess in the first place. Since some here seem to think we are set up to be world series bound in the next 2 years, which players in FA are you going to grab?

Throwing money at Adam Dunn did not get us in this "mess". A dearth of properly developed position players played a much bigger role.

Originally Posted by Stanley

Since some here seem to think we are set up to be world series bound in the next 2 years, which players in FA are you going to grab?

Setting up a straw man I see. Nice try.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by rdivaldi

Setting up a straw man I see. Nice try.

It's not a straw man. It's a legit question. How are you building a world series contender in two years? Where are the 18-24 additions to this roster over the course of two years (depending on your opinion of the organization)?

[rdivaldi]

Originally Posted by blandman

Eventually, the league will see him enough to get used to they way he's coming to the plate. And when that happens, it's going to be over for him.

But that's assuming Quintana will never improve and will approach every team/game in the same manner. If the league hasn't seen him enough after 40 starts in 1 1/2 seasons, then the league isn't doing their due diligence. There is more than enough video and data on Quintana to track his pitching patterns and style.

It could just be that Quintana is a pretty good middle of the rotation pitcher. He's not an ace, but he's someone that you can use and win with.

[JB98]

Originally Posted by Stanley

You suggesting we go "ALL IN" again?

Throwing money at Adam Dunn is a big part of what got us in this mess in the first place. Since some here seem to think we are set up to be world series bound in the next 2 years, which players in FA are you going to grab?

Scouting and drafting good players is much harder, yet much more effective, at building a consistent winner than just throwing money at bs in free agency. It's clear we've only excelled at one of those so far for quite a while.

You don't have to give one player $15 million.

Take a look at what KW did in between 2004 and 2005. He traded Lee and let Ordonez walk in free agency.

He used the savings to sign Dye, Pierzynski, Iguchi, Hermanson and Hernandez. He was also able to ink Garcia to an extension after trading for him in the middle of the 2004 season.

None of these were big-ticket free agent acquisitions. None of these moves made hearts go pitter-patter with excitement. But in combination, the team was completely transformed in one offseason.

And, yes, I know the Sox will not be winning the World Series in 2014. The 2013 Sox don't have nearly as many pieces in place as the 2004 Sox did.

I merely use this as an illustration of how a GM can quickly change the makeup of a roster without signing a big-ticket free agent, or embarking on some five-year rebuild. The Sox are not going to undertake a Cubs-style rebuilding, nor should they. Or, to use an example within the AL Central, I'm still waiting for that awesome Kansas City farm system to produce multiple playoff appearances at the big-league level.

I don't know why people think rebuilding through the draft and the minor-league system is a surefire solution. For every Tampa Bay and Washington, there's a Kansas City and a Pittsburgh. Those two organizations went through about four five-year plans. The Pirates might finally be starting to pull out of it, but the Royals still blow.

The Sox do need to do a better job of scouting, drafting and developing. That's obvious. But the bigger problem here is tying up too much money in just a handful of players. For years, the Sox have suffered from having a top-heavy roster. Now, the guys who are making the bucks have stopped producing, and this is what you get -- a team that's completely out of balance and stuck between a rock and a hard place in the short run.

[rdivaldi]

Originally Posted by blandman

It's not a straw man. It's a legit question. How are you building a world series contender in two years? Where are the 18-24 additions to this roster over the course of two years (depending on your opinion of the organization)?

No, that's a complete straw man argument.

"Since some here seem to think we are set up to be world series bound in the next 2 years".

No one has said that and no one is arguing that. It's a complete garbage statement to try and discredit an opinion and confuse the argument.

"Stanley" has done that twice already. I'm beginning to wonder is someone is using 2 ids.

[asindc]

Originally Posted by rdivaldi

no, that's a complete straw man argument.

"since some here seem to think we are set up to be world series bound in the next 2 years".

No one has said that and no one is arguing that. It's a complete garbage statement to try and discredit an opinion and confuse the argument.

"stanley" has done that twice already. i'm beginning to wonder is someone is using 2 ids.

LOL funny!

[blandman]

Originally Posted by rdivaldi

But that's assuming Quintana will never improve and will approach every team/game in the same manner. If the league hasn't seen him enough after 40 starts in 1 1/2 seasons, then the league isn't doing their due diligence. There is more than enough video and data on Quintana to track his pitching patterns and style.

It could just be that Quintana is a pretty good middle of the rotation pitcher. He's not an ace, but he's someone that you can use and win with.

It's the pitch quality. I don't think he's suddenly going to gain significant velocity or start snapping off Koufax quality curve balls. The guy doesn't have a single above average pitch. He's getting by with okay control and smoke and mirrors. When the smoke an mirrors are gone, what then? I suppose we could hope he gains elite control...but how likely is that, really?

Originally Posted by rdivaldi

No, that's a complete straw man argument.

"Since some here seem to think we are set up to be world series bound in the next 2 years".

No one has said that and no one is arguing that. It's a complete garbage statement to try and discredit an opinion and confuse the argument.

"Stanley" has done that twice already. I'm beginning to wonder is someone is using 2 ids.

What are you proposing in two years then? Because if you're not suggesting we're world series bound, why on Earth are we targeting two years from now instead of when newly acquired prospects from the last draft and future drafts start being ready?

I am not "Stanley", if that's what you're implying.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by blandman

It's the pitch quality. I don't think he's suddenly going to gain significant velocity or start snapping off Koufax quality curve balls. The guy doesn't have a single above average pitch. He's getting by with okay control and smoke and mirrors. When the smoke an mirrors are gone, what then? I suppose we could hope he gains elite control...but how likely is that, really?



What are you proposing in two years then? Because if you're not suggesting we're world series bound, why on Earth are we targeting two years from now instead of when newly acquired prospects from the last draft and future drafts start being ready?

I am not "Stanley", if that's what you're implying.

His fastball and cutter are both above average for a LH starter.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by blandman

It's the pitch quality. I don't think he's suddenly going to gain significant velocity or start snapping off Koufax quality curve balls. The guy doesn't have a single above average pitch. He's getting by with okay control and smoke and mirrors. When the smoke an mirrors are gone, what then? I suppose we could hope he gains elite control...but how likely is that, really?

Well again, you've proven yourself to be a pretty terrible scout so you're just going to have to live in a world where not everyone takes your opinions as 100% fact.

Originally Posted by blandman

What are you proposing in two years then? Because if you're not suggesting we're world series bound, why on Earth are we targeting two years from now instead of when newly acquired prospects from the last draft and future drafts start being ready?

Because part of the 5-year plan to build a perpetual winner could easily include a 2-year plan to be competitive again? Very, very few teams go from last to first place overnight even after years of hording away young kids in the minors hoping they develop into MLB talent. Almost every team makes small steps in the process of rebuilding.

[Foulke You]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

His fastball and cutter are both above average for a LH starter.

I think Blandman is getting Quintana confused with Axelrod. Jose regularly has been snapping that fastball at 91-93mph all season long. The cutter he features is also above average.

Also, since Quintana has been deemed a #5 on a good team, I would like to point out that injuries are the only reason that he has been bumped higher in the rotation order. On opening day, Quintana was our #5. Just for grins though, here is a look at how Quintana's numbers stack up against some #3s on some good MLB teams this year. You'll find that Quintana's numbers are comparable or better:

WHITE SOX: Jose Quintana- 3W-2L 3.83 E.R.A. 1.25 WHIP
RED SOX: Ryan Dempster- 4W-8L 4.23 E.R.A. 1.35 WHIP
RANGERS: Justin Grimm- 6W-5L 5.57 E.R.A. 1.54 WHIP
REDS: Homer Bailey- 4W-5L 3.75 E.R.A. 1.14 WHIP
BRAVES: Paul Maholm- 8W-6L 3.75 E.R.A. 1.27 WHIP
YANKEES: Phil Hughes- 3W-6L 5.09 E.R.A. 1.42 WHIP

[blandman]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Well again, you've proven yourself to be a pretty terrible scout so you're just going to have to live in a world where not everyone takes your opinions as 100% fact.



Because part of the 5-year plan to build a perpetual winner could easily include a 2-year plan to be competitive again? Very, very few teams go from last to first place overnight even after years of hording away young kids in the minors hoping they develop into MLB talent. Almost every team makes small steps in the process of rebuilding.

I feel like no one here reads a scouting report that isn't given by Hawk. Seriously. What I've said shouldn't be new knowledge or even questioned. It's been mentioned by numerous sites, like fangraphs and espn, and even by local outlets (like southside sox and white sox observer). Everyone pretty much has the same to say. The stuff isn't there, he's placing decently (especially early in games), and it's his motion that's helping.

I'm not arguing that a 5-year plan to build a perpetual winner couldn't easily include a 2-year plan to be competitive. I believe that to be so. Instead, I'm arguing that a 5-year plan to build a perpetual winner cannot include a 2-year plan to be competitive given the assets of this team, because of it's current roster, lack of any semblance of organizational depth, high salaries on the books, shoddy scouting, poor player development, and a dearth of quality free agents likely to be available within our price range.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by blandman

I feel like no one here reads a scouting report that isn't given by Hawk. Seriously. What I've said shouldn't be new knowledge or even questioned. It's been mentioned by numerous sites, like fangraphs and espn, and even by local outlets (like southside sox and white sox observer). Everyone pretty much has the same to say. The stuff isn't there, he's placing decently (especially early in games), and it's his motion that's helping.

I need a scouting report on guys who play from other teams who I don't get to see regularly. I need a scouting report on minor league or amateur players who I pretty much never see out of select clips that have been uploaded to YouTube. I don't need to use a scouting report as a crutch for a guy who has thrown 200+ innings for the Sox. I've watched a number of Quintana's starts, I am telling you, based on what I've seen from him, he's a perfectly fine option as a SP for even a good team. I was wary of him when he came up as well, but he's progressively gotten better as he has come along, he's hitting the mid-90s with his fastball now (FanGraphs has his max velocity at 94-95).

Again, you want to disagree with that assessment, that's fine, but people are disagreeing with you based on what we have seen from the guy, not being spoon fed **** by Hawk. We're all amateurs on this board, nobody's opinion is more or less valid than anyone else's, despite what you may think.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by JB98

The Sox do need to do a better job of scouting, drafting and developing. That's obvious. But the bigger problem here is tying up too much money in just a handful of players. For years, the Sox have suffered from having a top-heavy roster. Now, the guys who are making the bucks have stopped producing, and this is what you get -- a team that's completely out of balance and stuck between a rock and a hard place in the short run.

We both get it, I think, but people keep simplifying each others' thoughts, and that's a problem. But, does it not come down to trusting and committing to one approach over the other? I feel we've given the patch-work, rebuild on-the-fly, ALL-IN, Mark Kotsay DH and Adam Dunn 56 mil. route a full go at it.

I don't doubt any GM's ability to turn a team around quickly, relatively speaking. But if the Sox were the Rays (or the Twins of several years ago), I think we'd be making the playoffs more consistently and have an edge if we did make the playoffs, due to the emphasis on contact hitting, going the other way, pitching and defense etc. We already preach some of that, but you get what I mean. Since you don't have to rely as much on FA or finding lightning in a bottle, you don't have to do stupid things like the Rays would probably never do (even if they had the money), like sign Dunn to that contract. And I get it, it's not just Dunn.

But it is the cronyism, the dysfunction, and the sad state of play that lead me to believe that things may very well continue down a similar path until things are a bit more seriously shaken up. This is compounded by the fact that, although maybe not not fully ready to become a winner, teams like the Royals and Indians have again started down the path that has lead to spending a bit of dough and they are at least pretending to be competitive.