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  #196  
Old 06-24-2013, 04:45 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by SoxSpeed22 View Post
Because everybody needs a 96 MPH fastball in order to succeed.

Please stop framing the argument in such a way that it does not reflect what I am saying. No you don't need to throw 96. But if you rely heavily on your fastball, and it's straight, then you do need to throw 96. Or have exemplary breaking pitches. Quintana has neither. At least not yet. I'm not saying it's impossible. But is it likely? Or is it more likely the league gets used to his arm slot? That's why I'm questioning the logic of considering him a rotation piece in the future.
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  #197  
Old 06-24-2013, 04:58 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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How long does the league need to catch up to his arm slot? 220 innings. Is the AL on a 28k modem and still waiting for the jpeg to load?
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Originally Posted by shoota
I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #198  
Old 06-24-2013, 06:10 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
This assumes that

1. Without trading Sale we can rebuild in time for his contract to still be valuable (since every rebuilding year his cost is an unnecessary expense)
If the team is rebuilding, why would there be concern for an unnecessary expense for an ace? I'd only be concerned if I was looking to spend, and I wouldn't be looking to spend during a rebuild. He's only making an average of 4.75 mil in 2014 and 2015 (barely 3 million average if you include this year), and then eleven a year the next two. You'd pay more than that for a borderline #4 in the open market. Thornton was paid more for 2012-2013 than Sale will be paid for 2014-2015. It's not like the Sox are the Marlins and need to pair down payroll to 20 million in order to rebuild. Who are you saving that five mil for that is going to outproduce Sale?

If you want to argue that whoever he returns is going to be collectively be more productive in the long run that's one thing, but the unnecessary expense argument is pretty weak considering Sale's contract.

Now Danks' contract, on the other hand, I would dump for a bag of balls.
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Last edited by TheVulture; 06-24-2013 at 06:16 PM.
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  #199  
Old 06-24-2013, 06:34 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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If the team is rebuilding, why would there be concern for an unnecessary expense for an ace? I'd only be concerned if I was looking to spend, and I wouldn't be looking to spend during a rebuild. He's only making an average of 4.75 mil in 2014 and 2015 (barely 3 million average if you include this year), and then eleven a year the next two. You'd pay more than that for a borderline #4 in the open market. Thornton was paid more for 2012-2013 than Sale will be paid for 2014-2015. It's not like the Sox are the Marlins and need to pair down payroll to 20 million in order to rebuild. Who are you saving that five mil for that is going to outproduce Sale?

If you want to argue that whoever he returns is going to be collectively be more productive in the long run that's one thing, but the unnecessary expense argument is pretty weak considering Sale's contract.

Now Danks' contract, on the other hand, I would dump for a bag of balls.
I'm not saying give Sale away by any means, but if you're not trading him that's still money that could have been spent on scouting, development, the japanese market, etc. You're right it's not that much money, but why spend it if you can get something to speed up your return for less money (and more years overall, since the clock starts on those pieces closer to your team's arrival date).
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  #200  
Old 06-24-2013, 07:17 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
I'm not saying give Sale away by any means, but if you're not trading him that's still money that could have been spent on scouting, development, the japanese market, etc. You're right it's not that much money, but why spend it if you can get something to speed up your return for less money (and more years overall, since the clock starts on those pieces closer to your team's arrival date).
The Sox could pare down the payroll significantly each of the next two seasons without dumping Sale. You think his value is highest now, what if he puts up CY award seasons the next two years(including this one), his trade value would be through the roof. He'd still have three years at 9 mil/yr with two option years left. I'd rather the Sox hold on to him, if it looks hopeless in three years, then trade him. Giving up young ace pitchers doesn't usually turn out well, it's not like they're just growing on trees.

Last edited by TheVulture; 06-24-2013 at 07:24 PM.
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  #201  
Old 06-24-2013, 07:34 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
The Sox could pare down the payroll significantly each of the next two seasons without dumping Sale. You think his value is highest now, what if he puts up CY award seasons the next two years(including this one), his trade value would be through the roof. He'd still have three years at 9 mil/yr with two option years left. I'd rather the Sox hold on to him, if it looks hopeless in three years, then trade him. Giving up young ace pitchers doesn't usually turn out well, it's not like they're just growing on trees.
I don't think a Cy Young is going to change his value much, I think teams view him as one of the best pitchers in the game period. The problem is the health risk, and yeah a lot of people here don't think he'll get injured but if you're not competing in the meantime, why risk it? His value could go from marque to zilch overnight.
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  #202  
Old 06-24-2013, 09:14 PM
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The problem is the health risk
Is there a professional athlete in Baseball, Hockey, Basketball, Football, etc. who is not at risk for an injury at any moment during a game or match? If so, who is this and why is s/he not at risk for injury?
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  #203  
Old 06-24-2013, 10:43 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Is there a professional athlete in Baseball, Hockey, Basketball, Football, etc. who is not at risk for an injury at any moment during a game or match? If so, who is this and why is s/he not at risk for injury?
Okay, it's the increased health risk. You don't have to agree with it, but it's the opinion of every sports medicine professional that the motion Sale uses causes extreme stress on his elbow and back that other players do not face. Don't say "show me that", it's common knowledge that's been repeated by everyone from team execs to scouts to analysts to even agents who try to alter the approaches of their clients.
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  #204  
Old 06-24-2013, 10:57 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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I'm all for listening on Sale. But it would take many of the best prospects in baseball...probably more than any one team has.
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  #205  
Old 06-24-2013, 11:13 PM
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DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Okay, it's the increased health risk. You don't have to agree with it, but it's the opinion of every sports medicine professional that the motion Sale uses causes extreme stress on his elbow and back that other players do not face. Don't say "show me that", it's common knowledge that's been repeated by everyone from team execs to scouts to analysts to even agents who try to alter the approaches of their clients.
Standing at Home Plate with your cheekbone exposed while a very hard and unforgiving ball is coming at you at 95 MPH is very risky. Potentially fatal, in fact.
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  #206  
Old 06-25-2013, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Okay, it's the increased health risk. You don't have to agree with it, but it's the opinion of every sports medicine professional that the motion Sale uses causes extreme stress on his elbow and back that other players do not face. Don't say "show me that", it's common knowledge that's been repeated by everyone from team execs to scouts to analysts to even agents who try to alter the approaches of their clients.
According to every sports medicine professional every pitcher in MLB is at risk of arm injury because the act of throwing a baseball is an unnatural act, it's well documented, if you put the effort in you can find results from orthopedic surgeons as well as motion therapists that deal with pitcher recovery.

Pitchers get hurt because they don't throw enough.
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  #207  
Old 06-25-2013, 01:23 AM
WLL1855 WLL1855 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Okay, it's the increased health risk. You don't have to agree with it, but it's the opinion of every sports medicine professional that the motion Sale uses causes extreme stress on his elbow and back that other players do not face. Don't say "show me that", it's common knowledge that's been repeated by everyone from team execs to scouts to analysts to even agents who try to alter the approaches of their clients.
I just love how you can't help yourself to posit every situation in the worst possible light. Its cute. Really.
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  #208  
Old 06-25-2013, 01:56 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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According to every sports medicine professional every pitcher in MLB is at risk of arm injury because the act of throwing a baseball is an unnatural act, it's well documented, if you put the effort in you can find results from orthopedic surgeons as well as motion therapists that deal with pitcher recovery.

Pitchers get hurt because they don't throw enough.
Yes, and living causes death. That doesn't mean instead of walking on the sidewalk, I'm going to jump off a cliff.

Sale has the worst possible motion in the history of baseball, one that has never not lead to a severe injury in it's purest form. Only those with a borderline inverted W (Glavine, Smoltz, Drysdale, Pedro Martinez, Blylevin) survived it, some better than others. The key difference is they never let their elbow get above the level of their shoulder (which in the traditional and dangerous inverted W is what causes catastrophic injury). The only thing that could make it more dangerous for his arm is if he cut it off and threw that at home plate. That isn't hyperbole. Sale has a true inverted W. If he pitches his career with that and doesn't blow out his elbow, he'll be the first person in baseball history to do so.

I know everyone's going to run and look that up. Make sure your site differentiates between a true inverted W and borderline. The key difference is the location of the elbow in relation to the shoulder.

Last edited by blandman; 06-25-2013 at 02:15 AM.
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  #209  
Old 06-25-2013, 02:56 AM
KRS1 KRS1 is online now
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All health concerns aside, there's not a single player on this team I wouldn't trade - Sale included. Sometimes you have to move elite talent to get bulk average talent for a better overall and more sustainable club, it's the way of the game. Having said that, I don't see him going anywhere.
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  #210  
Old 06-25-2013, 08:06 AM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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What is this "5 years away" garbage that keeps popping up? You can rebuild your major league team in 1 year if you spend the money (yes, I know that's not going to happen) and in 3 years pretty easily.
It's been 5 seasons since the Sox made the playoffs and 5 years since they brought in Buddy Bell to fix their minor league system.

To think that this team is another 5 years away from being a legitimate contender might be pessimistic, but it's not "garbage".

The Sox can spend their way to a possible wild card or "tallest midget" AL Central title rather quickly if they chose to do so, but it would probably mean handing a lot of money to declining veterans. That's not "rebuilding".
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