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  #61  
Old 06-27-2013, 05:29 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by RCWHITESOX View Post
Cole is a rookie with no MLB track record. Cole might be better in the long run; but in the heat of a pennant no way.
He'll also likely not make it through the season due to an innings limit.
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  #62  
Old 06-27-2013, 05:58 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by RCWHITESOX View Post
I know your kidding right? There is no way Cole is a better pitcher down the stretch or any other time than a proven number 1 starter in Peavy. Cole is a rookie with no MLB track record. Cole might be better in the long run; but in the heat of a pennant no way.
Cole has much better stuff than Peavy, is the number one pitching prospect in the game, and is ready. You don't trade for Jake Peavy if you have that waiting with no where to pitch. That would be like the Nationals in Strausburg's rookie year trading for Peavy and sending Strausburg down to the minors. Yeah, it backfired for them. But it would still be a stupid trade. Cole has Nintendo stuff, and is at least going to dominant his first couple of times through.
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  #63  
Old 06-27-2013, 07:01 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Cole has much better stuff than Peavy, is the number one pitching prospect in the game, and is ready. You don't trade for Jake Peavy if you have that waiting with no where to pitch. That would be like the Nationals in Strausburg's rookie year trading for Peavy and sending Strausburg down to the minors. Yeah, it backfired for them. But it would still be a stupid trade. Cole has Nintendo stuff, and is at least going to dominant his first couple of times through.
Fine but they don't have 5 Coles. (I know - Liriano is suddenly elite now that he isn't with the Sox).
With Peavy, we shouldn't trade him anyway before he rehabs and starts a couple of games. We may have to save him for next year - so be it. There's no reason to give him away - we need to take the risk, get him healthy and then put him on the market. Because if healthy, he is worth a lot. Injured, he's worth nothing but salary relief for JR. I doubt anyone else will pay full price for an injured Peavy.
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  #64  
Old 06-28-2013, 08:49 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Fine but they don't have 5 Coles. (I know - Liriano is suddenly elite now that he isn't with the Sox).
With Peavy, we shouldn't trade him anyway before he rehabs and starts a couple of games. We may have to save him for next year - so be it. There's no reason to give him away - we need to take the risk, get him healthy and then put him on the market. Because if healthy, he is worth a lot. Injured, he's worth nothing but salary relief for JR. I doubt anyone else will pay full price for an injured Peavy.
I think it's important that guys who failed here learned to pitch elsewhere. Don Cooper's a very good pitching coach, but he isn't infallible.

They don't have 5 Coles, but if they can't even keep a spot open for him right now, they're not going to clog up the rotation any more. They could also use an elite bat. Probably more.
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  #65  
Old 06-28-2013, 09:15 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
I think it's important that guys who failed here learned to pitch elsewhere. Don Cooper's a very good pitching coach, but he isn't infallible.

They don't have 5 Coles, but if they can't even keep a spot open for him right now, they're not going to clog up the rotation any more. They could also use an elite bat. Probably more.
No one said Don Cooper is "infallible."

However, there is a long history of veteran pitchers and hitters going from the AL to the NL and realizing significant improvement. Facing pitchers instead of designated hitters tends to help pitchers perform better, and getting pinch hit or double-switched out of a game in the later innings while your own team is hitting often forestalls a late-inning meltdown.
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  #66  
Old 06-28-2013, 09:21 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
No one said Don Cooper is "infallible."

However, there is a long history of veteran pitchers and hitters going from the AL to the NL and realizing significant improvement. Facing pitchers instead of designated hitters tends to help pitchers perform better, and getting pinch hit or double-switched out of a game in the later innings while your own team is hitting often forestalls a late-inning meltdown.
That's not what Liriano is. The Pirates adjusted a mechanical hitch that caused his control to suffer. He doesn't walk nearly as many batters, and doesn't fall behind all the time. Don't be a Coopologist!

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/50493176
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  #67  
Old 06-28-2013, 09:23 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
I think it's important that guys who failed here learned to pitch elsewhere. Don Cooper's a very good pitching coach, but he isn't infallible.

They don't have 5 Coles, but if they can't even keep a spot open for him right now, they're not going to clog up the rotation any more. They could also use an elite bat. Probably more.
I think Cooper is over-hyped in these parts, but I'm more concerned with hitters losing OBP after time with the Sox, then recovering it once they get away (see Quentin, CArlos, e.g.).
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  #68  
Old 06-28-2013, 10:51 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
That's not what Liriano is. The Pirates adjusted a mechanical hitch that caused his control to suffer. He doesn't walk nearly as many batters, and doesn't fall behind all the time. Don't be a Coopologist!

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/50493176
Cooper obviously didn't correct this issue with Liriano, but it doesn't mean he's not one of the best pitching coaches in the majors, and it doesn't make what I posted untrue.
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  #69  
Old 06-28-2013, 11:15 AM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
That's not what Liriano is. The Pirates adjusted a mechanical hitch that caused his control to suffer. He doesn't walk nearly as many batters, and doesn't fall behind all the time. Don't be a Coopologist!

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/50493176
If Liriano holds the line on this I would be shocked. The Twins felt they had him "fixed" many times in his career there until they finally gave up. He would go through stretches like this in Minnesota (2006, part of 2008, and all of 2010) where he would pitch well and dominate and then his mechanics would get all wonky again the following year. Consistency has always been the issue with Liriano. This isn't me being an apologist for Coop, it is just who Liriano is as a pitcher.
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  #70  
Old 06-28-2013, 11:26 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Cooper obviously didn't correct this issue with Liriano, but it doesn't mean he's not one of the best pitching coaches in the majors, and it doesn't make what I posted untrue.
Oh I agree, I think Cooper is exceptional.

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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
If Liriano holds the line on this I would be shocked. The Twins felt they had him "fixed" many times in his career there until they finally gave up. He would go through stretches like this in Minnesota (2006, part of 2008, and all of 2010) where he would pitch well and dominate and then his mechanics would get all wonky again the following year. Consistency has always been the issue with Liriano. This isn't me being an apologist for Coop, it is just who Liriano is as a pitcher.
Liriano hasn't looked this good since before he was seriously injured. He hasn't been "fixed" by any stretch since then. He's been effective, but always effectively wild. This is different. He's a new kind of good, one that looks like he's making good on the potential he showed when he entered the league.
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  #71  
Old 07-06-2013, 06:01 PM
sager729 sager729 is offline
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What about Rios and Lindstrom to the Pirates for one of Jameson Taillon/Gregory Polanco/Alen Hanson as the centerpiece with Nick Kingham and Josh Bell as secondary pieces? Maybe a low level fourth prospect like a Vic Black to round out the deal.
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  #72  
Old 07-06-2013, 07:30 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Why don't we just ask the Pirates for Mccutchen and Starling Marte for Axelrod
And Dunn while we are at it. The pirates wouldn't make that trade on your playstation let one in real life.
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  #73  
Old 07-06-2013, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I think Cooper is over-hyped in these parts, but I'm more concerned with hitters losing OBP after time with the Sox, then recovering it once they get away (see Quentin, CArlos, e.g.).
Didn't Carlos Quentin have, by far, the best season of his career with the Sox?
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  #74  
Old 07-06-2013, 08:39 PM
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Didn't Carlos Quentin have, by far, the best season of his career with the Sox?
It would appear so.
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  #75  
Old 07-06-2013, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
I could see Crain and Peavy drawing that kind of interest if the market proves to be very buyer heavy, but it's hard to get a good gauge of their value without any moves having been made yet.

The best I think we can do for Alexei is swap him for an older prospect that may have worn out his welcome where he is an maybe a reclamation project for the Sox. Maybe someone like a Dee Gordon. You're not getting top talent for a guy whose been steadily regressing for 4 years and still has 2 left on his contract.
If his bat translates to the majors he looks like a prototypical lead off hitter and De Aza just isn't a long term fix, IMO.
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