Mark Buehrle HOF Discussion

[Boondock Saint]

I'm not saying this as a case for Buehrle's inclusion, but unless the voters alter their criterion for what constitutes a HoF career, there won't be any more HoF pitchers. The game has changed, and the way the voters view stats needs to change with it.

[Danryan]

Mark is great, but no HOF.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by Milw

You're really grasping for straws. When a player isn't even a consensus HOFer among his own fanbase, he has no real chance.

Buehrle will go down as one of the great players in Sox history, and I imagine he will linger on the HOF ballot for several years, but no way in hell he gets in.

It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.

I don't believe Mark Buehrle will get into the Hall of Fame, but not because the White Sox fanbase doesn't appreciate what he has done in his career. I don't think WAR is relevant to the Hall of Fame unless people who have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame or voting for it (with a few exceptions) are arguing over who deserves to be in and who does not. The Hall of Fame isn't about stats.

I think Buehrle would be closer to the Hall of Fame if he had stayed with the White Sox. He was a better pitcher with the White Sox, for whatever reason. I think he would have continued to be a better pitcher than he turned out to be if he had stayed with the White Sox.

Jack Brickhouse said of Jim Bunning during a Cubs-Phillies game at the end of Bunning's baseball career that he was a player who simply pitched so well for so long that he sort of wrapped himself around the Hall of Fame. Of course, the Veterans Committee recognized that two decades later. He didn't seem like a Hall of Famer, but late in his career, you looked at him and you knew he was, after going out and pitching in all those tough games, winning most of them, pitching a no-hitter and then a perfect game. Mark Buehrle would have to be the Jim Bunning of his day. Unfortunately, because I happen to like Mark Buehrle, he hasn't been that since leaving the Sox.

[Mr. Jinx]

Originally Posted by TDog

It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Foulke You]

Originally Posted by TDog

It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.

Ummmmm...what?!

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by TDog

It depends on the fanbase. The White Sox fanbase doesn't show their players the sort of respect that fans in other cities show their players, at least not one they're still active.

I don't believe Mark Buehrle will get into the Hall of Fame, but not because the White Sox fanbase doesn't appreciate what he has done in his career. I don't think WAR is relevant to the Hall of Fame unless people who have nothing to do with the Hall of Fame or voting for it (with a few exceptions) are arguing over who deserves to be in and who does not. The Hall of Fame isn't about stats.

I think Buehrle would be closer to the Hall of Fame if he had stayed with the White Sox. He was a better pitcher with the White Sox, for whatever reason. I think he would have continued to be a better pitcher than he turned out to be if he had stayed with the White Sox.

Jack Brickhouse said of Jim Bunning during a Cubs-Phillies game at the end of Bunning's baseball career that he was a player who simply pitched so well for so long that he sort of wrapped himself around the Hall of Fame. Of course, the Veterans Committee recognized that two decades later. He didn't seem like a Hall of Famer, but late in his career, you looked at him and you knew he was, after going out and pitching in all those tough games, winning most of them, pitching a no-hitter and then a perfect game. Mark Buehrle would have to be the Jim Bunning of his day. Unfortunately, because I happen to like Mark Buehrle, he hasn't been that since leaving the Sox.

Are you not aware that Mark's season in Miami last year was arguably the 2nd best of his career?

[Huisj]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Are you not aware that Mark's season in Miami last year was arguably the 2nd best of his career?

By what measure? I'm not sure how you can rate 202 IP with a slightly better than league average ERA in the NL over what he did in 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2008, and really even 2009 and 2011. Just because his WHIP was a little lower from a lower BABIP? Because his K's jumped? Those can be used as arguments I suppose, but the overall results don't point to those being better seasons than many of his years in Chicago.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by Foulke You

Ummmmm...what?!

Relative to other fanbases in the majors, the White Sox fanbase is regarded as being on the negative side. That isn't my opinion, although it is an opinion, or at least a judgment. That's what I've heard from people in baseball and people who cover baseball, and that is consistent with what I read at WSI. There are many White Sox fans who seem proud to be negative under the guise of keeping it real.

[Domeshot17]

I love Buehrle, one of the all time great guys of baseball and was a very nice pitcher. That said, if he gets into the hall, something is wrong. He is a good pitcher, not great, no Cy Youngs, he does not deserve it.

[lpneck]

Originally Posted by TDog

Relative to other fanbases in the majors, the White Sox fanbase is regarded as being on the negative side. That isn't my opinion, although it is an opinion, or at least a judgment. That's what I've heard from people in baseball and people who cover baseball, and that is consistent with what I read at WSI. There are many White Sox fans who seem proud to be negative under the guise of keeping it real.

The bolded section sounds like KingXerxes doing a Farmio impression.

In all seriousness, your original statement was that "the White Sox fan base doesn't show their players the kind of respect that fans in other cities show their players."

I just don't buy that at all. I can't think of ANY former Sox player who has been treated badly returning to Chicago with maybe the exception of Sammy Sosa. Thomas, Crede, Thome, Rowand- all received standing ovations while PLAYING for other teams.

Adam Dunn, who is one of the worst 3 free agent signings in franchise history, gets treated pretty much with indifference from fans in the ballpark. How would that .159 average in 2011 have gone over if he had played in New York, Boston, or Philadelphia?

I don't disagree that there's a lot of negativity surrounding the Sox right now (how could there not be?) But to believe that any of that is generally directed at a lack of respect for the players, and certainly former players, and WITHOUT QUESTION someone who was as successful in a Sox uniform as Mark Buehrle is flat out crazy. He will never have to pay for a drink in Chicago for the rest of his life.

That being said, it's probably even crazier to believe Mark Buehrle is a Hall of Fame caliber player

[WhiteSox5187]

Originally Posted by Domeshot17

I love Buehrle, one of the all time great guys of baseball and was a very nice pitcher. That said, if he gets into the hall, something is wrong. He is a good pitcher, not great, no Cy Youngs, he does not deserve it.

I agree, if he lasts long enough to win 250 games then MAYBE a discussion can be had (assuming he isn't following the Jamie Moyer route and plays 25 years).

[chicagowhitesox1]

If he gets 200 innings this year, I think he will be tied with Eddie Plank and Red Ruffing as the only American League pitchers with 13 consecutive 200 inning seasons. (Modern era 1901 to present.)... Innings pitched don't seem to glamorous but considering nobody in this era is close to him says alot about his durability.

[DSpivack]

Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1

If he gets 200 innings this year, I think he will be tied with Eddie Plank and Red Ruffing as the only American League pitchers with 13 consecutive 200 inning seasons. (Modern era 1901 to present.)... Innings pitched don't seem to glamorous but considering nobody in this era is close to him says alot about his durability.

Well, it ain't the Hall of Durability.

[SouthSideMike]

From his page at Baseball Reference

Hall Of Fame Statistics Player rank in (·)

Black Ink Pitching - 8 (303), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 102 (211), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 44 (310), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 26 (195), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (102nd), 53.4 career WAR/35.8 7yr-peak WAR/44.6 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 57) = 72.6 career WAR/50.2 7yr-peak WAR/61.4 JAWS

He's not even close on any of those tests of HOF worthiness. Great player, one of my all time favorites, but nowhere near a HOF player.

[ZombieRob]

Great White Sox..Good but not one of the great ones.