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  #16  
Old 09-07-2013, 06:22 PM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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Default Scott Merkin

I heard White Sox weekly today with Scott Merkin. He said the only 2 players who definitely won't be moved this off season are Sale and Garcia. Take that for what it's worth. I thought he would say Quintana and Reed also, but he didn't. I still think it would make sense to keep our pitchers and sign some free agents like McCann, Morales and Ellsbury.
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  #17  
Old 09-07-2013, 06:26 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
And open up the purse strings.
Money shouldnt be a factor considering next year salaries and future obligations. The problem will be getting available quality players. I look at FA lists and its tough coming up with sure things. The worse thing that could happen is for the Sox to sign a couple long term busts. Relying on FA's is going to be a real gamble.
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  #18  
Old 09-07-2013, 07:15 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
The worst depression was 68, 69 and 70 mainly because I grew up with nothing but winning seasons by the Sox.
1976 was a downer but Veeck signed Zisk, Gamble and Solderholm in the off-season and I thought that the Sox would be over .500 but but what a fun year it turned out to be at least until mid August, still wound up at 90-72.
Veeck didn't sign Gamble. The Sox traded their most popular player, Bucky Dent, for Oscar Gamble, who had never lived up to his his potential. The big player in the deal turned out to be LaMarr Hoyt, but he was still a few years away. Gamble had only one hit 20 home runs in a season, and then only 20. After his 31-homer season with the Sox, he would never hit 20 again. Gamble didn't actually sign a contract until late in the 1977 season. He was holding out for more money during his free agent year, and he was determined to become a free agent.

Veeck didn't sign Zisk. The Sox traded Terry Forster and Rich Gossage to the Pirates for Zisk, who also was determined to become a free agent. Forster and Gossage were to become free agents as well, making it a curious deal

Soderholm signed as a bargain free agent (at a time when teams participated in a free-agent draft for negotiation purposes, I don't recall Soderholm being drafted by many teams), but he wasn't highly regarded at all, at least not as a power hitter. He was less anticipated in 1977 by fans than Keppinger was this year. He had seasons of 25 and 20 homers with the White Sox, but otherwise never hit more than 11 homers in a season. Other free agents the Sox signed before the season, Timmy Nordbrook and Royle Stillman, went unnoticed by most fans.

Fans knew Zisk and Gamble would be gone. After the 1977 season, Veeck traded young players including Brian Downing for pending free agent Bobby Bonds, who he hoped you pull a Gamble, and traded him early in 1978 for Claudell Washington, who looked like he could be Gamble.

If you're saying you anticipated improvement after the 1996 season, you are probably remembering it wrong. I don't know how optimistic you could have been about 1978 after losing Zisk and Gamble and giving up another young potential star for one superstar who obviously didn't have a future with the team.
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  #19  
Old 09-07-2013, 07:21 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is online now
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Veeck didn't sign Gamble. The Sox traded their most popular player, Bucky Dent, for Oscar Gamble, who had never lived up to his his potential. The big player in the deal turned out to be LaMarr Hoyt, but he was still a few years away. Gamble had only one hit 20 home runs in a season, and then only 20. After his 31-homer season with the Sox, he would never hit 20 again. Gamble didn't actually sign a contract until late in the 1977 season. He was holding out for more money during his free agent year, and he was determined to become a free agent.

Veeck didn't sign Zisk. The Sox traded Terry Forster and Rich Gossage to the Pirates for Zisk, who also was determined to become a free agent. Forster and Gossage were to become free agents as well, making it a curious deal

Soderholm signed as a bargain free agent (at a time when teams participated in a free-agent draft for negotiation purposes, I don't recall Soderholm being drafted by many teams), but he wasn't highly regarded at all, at least not as a power hitter. He was less anticipated in 1977 by fans than Keppinger was this year. He had seasons of 25 and 20 homers with the White Sox, but otherwise never hit more than 11 homers in a season. Other free agents the Sox signed before the season, Timmy Nordbrook and Royle Stillman, went unnoticed by most fans.

Fans knew Zisk and Gamble would be gone. After the 1977 season, Veeck traded young players including Brian Downing for pending free agent Bobby Bonds, who he hoped you pull a Gamble, and traded him early in 1978 for Claudell Washington, who looked like he could be Gamble.

If you're saying you anticipated improvement after the 1996 season, you are probably remembering it wrong. I don't know how optimistic you could have been about 1978 after losing Zisk and Gamble and giving up another young potential star for one superstar who obviously didn't have a future with the team.
Thanks for the corrections, I said I thought we would be over .500 for 1977. We had Lemon, Spencer, Johnson, Garr and Orta to build around and then we traded for Zisk and Gamble so yes I was thinking over .500. After losing Zisk and Gamble I did not have high hopes for 1978.
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Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 09-07-2013 at 07:33 PM.
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  #20  
Old 09-07-2013, 09:45 PM
DirtySox DirtySox is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
If Addison Reed is the best the Sox can do at closer, then I see no reason for any sort of optimism whatsoever that the Sox can be competitive in the near future...

I remember looking it up and I'm pretty sure he's making less than $1M/yr... the only possible reason they keep throwing his sorry butt out there...
Lol. I don't even know where to start with this post.
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  #21  
Old 09-07-2013, 10:16 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Originally Posted by DirtySox View Post
Lol. I don't even know where to start with this post.
Let me help you out a little... Addison Reed.. 2013 Salary - $520K...currently ranks 25th in ERA out of 30 MLB closers

Last edited by captain54; 09-07-2013 at 10:47 PM. Reason: wrong term
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  #22  
Old 09-07-2013, 10:38 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
Let me help you out a little... Addison Reed.. 2013 Salary - $520K...currently ranks 25th in ERA out of 30 MLB relievers..
There's only 30 relievers in baseball?
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #23  
Old 09-07-2013, 10:43 PM
delben91 delben91 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jurr View Post
Viciedo has NO GLOVE. He was picked up to provide power from a corner outfield position. He's a hole and a hat. Dump him.

For a team that plays in USCF, to have this little power production is laughable.

Gar-bage.
Mass firings should ensue along with a
wholesale roster overhaul.
I hope Dunn and Konerko both retire to allow this team to have a ton of cash to spend on younger players who actually give a **** about baseball.
Agreed.

I suggest that Reinsdorf put the team up for auction and lay off every employee to include the vendors, security, parking attendants, everyone. They should also release all the players on the roster and start from scratch.

I feel this is a realistic plan and the fastest way back to fielding a competitive team.

Oh, wait, this is what a rebuild looks like? The rebuild everyone was calling for? Where the team is going to be various scents of garbage for a while as the pieces are reassembled?

Huh...who knew?
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  #24  
Old 09-07-2013, 10:46 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
There's only 30 relievers in baseball?
"closers".. not relievers, my bad..
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  #25  
Old 09-08-2013, 12:19 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
I'm very depressed with the future of the team. There is not a lot right now to build around. Right now I keep:

A. Garcia
Beckham
Viciedo (too early to give up on him)
L. Garcia (utility infielder)
That's it for position players, so sad.

Pitchers:
Sale
Santiago
Quintana
Danks (he gets a pass this year because of his surgery)
Jones
Reed

Hahn has got his work cut out for him this coming winter.
I'd keep Phegley and Gillespie, unless we find someone better. Those 2 tried this year. But I'd trade any of the "keepers" other than Garcia in the right deal.
I'd trade any of those pitcher too, except I guess Sale, if we can get a good deal for young positional talent.

Wish we'd been willing to eat salary and get more of the veteran stiffs off this team.
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  #26  
Old 09-08-2013, 12:24 AM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
How depressed were you in 1976? Really, you should have been more depressed for the future in 1977, although you probably didn't feel that way at the time.
So we're 6 years away from an ALCS appearance? I'll take it.
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  #27  
Old 09-08-2013, 12:54 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
Let me help you out a little... Addison Reed.. 2013 Salary - $520K...currently ranks 25th in ERA out of 30 MLB closers
LOL, people still use ERA. That's adorable!

Reed has a 1.7 WAR, 46th best of all 336 pitchers who have thrown a pitch in the AL and 13th best in the league for relievers...

1) Uehara, Boston - 3.3 WAR
2) Nathan, Texas - 2.7
3) Crain, Sox/Rays - 2.4
4) Robertson, NYY - 2.3
5) Smyly, Detroit - 2.2
6) Holland, Kansas City - 2.2
7) Medina, Seattle - 2.1
8) Cotts, Texas - 2.1
9) Benoit, Detroit - 2.1
10) Torres, Tampa Bay - 1.9
11) Rivera, NYY - 1.9
12) Cook, Oakland - 1.8
13) Reed, Sox - 1.7

By my count, there's only 2 names on that list ahead of Reed who have been closers for the full season and, I think 2 others who have done it at some point in the year.
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  #28  
Old 09-08-2013, 07:29 AM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
LOL, people still use ERA. That's adorable!

.
I've been following baseball an awfully long time,pal. I don't need anyone to tell me what stats are and aren't relevant. If you're comfortable with Reed as the closer for another decade or so, then go for it. Have a nice day
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  #29  
Old 09-08-2013, 09:45 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
LOL, people still use ERA. That's adorable!

Reed has a 1.7 WAR, 46th best of all 336 pitchers who have thrown a pitch in the AL and 13th best in the league for relievers...

1) Uehara, Boston - 3.3 WAR
2) Nathan, Texas - 2.7
3) Crain, Sox/Rays - 2.4
4) Robertson, NYY - 2.3
5) Smyly, Detroit - 2.2
6) Holland, Kansas City - 2.2
7) Medina, Seattle - 2.1
8) Cotts, Texas - 2.1
9) Benoit, Detroit - 2.1
10) Torres, Tampa Bay - 1.9
11) Rivera, NYY - 1.9
12) Cook, Oakland - 1.8
13) Reed, Sox - 1.7

By my count, there's only 2 names on that list ahead of Reed who have been closers for the full season and, I think 2 others who have done it at some point in the year.
You should still use ERA. Along with everything else. Of course a decent to good reliever can see his ERA blow up in 1 or 2 bad outings. I'd venture to say I've spent more time on this than at least 90% of hard core baseball fans and they have reconfigurated the various WARs so many times I now find it amusing. I still haven't met anyone who can show me how to calculate WAR like you would say BA or ERA. As for Reed, I think I value him less than you apparently do and more than captain54. I'm not sure that he will ever be an elite closer.
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  #30  
Old 09-08-2013, 09:48 AM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
LOL, people still use ERA. That's adorable!

.
I find using WAR just as adorable. It rates D Wise for 30 games higher than A Garcia in 27.

I think Reed and Garcia are keepers
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