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  #31  
Old 12-31-2013, 09:41 AM
RealFan RealFan is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Dan Marino sucks, Trent Dilfer rules, eh? The mantra of horrible sports radio callers everywhere! "This guy doesn't know how to win!" Just awesome. It's right up there with "You never played the game, so you have no right to an opinion." The last time I heard that one and asked if Vin Scully was allowed an opinion, you know what I got from the poster to whom I was responding? Crickets. Shocker.
+1

Obviously a discussion of Dunn brings about a lot of emotion which clouds rational thought.


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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Butkus and Sayers come to mind, too.
And that list could go on and on if we expand it to include All Star level athletes from all major sports leagues who never won a championship.
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  #32  
Old 12-31-2013, 11:15 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by chisox59 View Post
To me this feels a lot like the off season between the dismal 106 loss 1970 team and the more exciting 1971 team. We weren't big contenders in '71 but we made some strides and were much more interesting to watch. Like Roland Hemond did in that off season Hahn has dumped some aging veterans and brought in some youth which should create excitement. I, too, like the direction he has taken. I don't expect a worst to first scenario but I do expect the team to be better and the enthusiasm the players generate to carry over to the stands. Hopefully we'll see a change in the draft where we pick the best available baseball player and not just the best athlete. I'd also like to see our minor league system ignore the standings and develop players in all aspects of the game. Teach the fundamentals so they become second nature and the standings will take care of themselves and maybe we can finally bring up players who are mlb ready instead of trying to teach them at the big league level.
After 1970, we got rid of the entire starting 8 except for Melton, Carlos May and Ed Hermann. Dumped the entire bullpen except for Wilbur Wood, and he was moved into the rotation. What I never understood is why that early 70s group didn't have any staying power, considering good young players like Dent, Orta, Gossage and Forrester starting moving in. Now we continued to develop good young players in the late 1970s, but then Veeck made some clownish moves in the mid-late 1970s.
Re today, I certainly hope the Sox aren't not developing to help the standings (although I don't see why that's an either/or).
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  #33  
Old 12-31-2013, 11:32 AM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
For the first time in a long time I feel like the Sox have a clue and a plan. The Kenny Williams era got dreadful. I mean, from an unbiased perspective, is there anyone alive in terms of baseball GM's with his luck of catching lightning in a bottle once? The man's career sans 1 incredible season was really subpar as a GM. His drafts produced nothing, he pretty much broke even in trades, and had a reputation for being stale bread - Build an 83 win teams and hope they over achieve, every year -. But 1 year, 2005, it all came together. Contreras found it, Freddy found it, the bullpen pitched above their abilities, about everything went right. The team made the playoffs 1 time since the world series, winning 1 game.

Because of that, he got promoted almost 10 years later to president. Something that rarely happens to GMs, and even more rare GM's with 1 world title.

Enter Rick Hahn. After a handwash season, he has been putting his signature on this team. Last year, we had a team of lazy players who could not play defense. That feels gone. We should have a solid defensive team this year. We got players known for playing hard.

It should atleast be FUN to watch White Sox baseball.

Some fans have short memories. In 2012, the Sox had a 3 game lead with ten days to go in the season, after leading for most of the season. If a fan could not enjoy that kind of season, not sure why they enjoy baseball at all. Sure, would have loved to finish it out, but during the season, the Sox played good ball that year...only 1 season back. Yet, fans denigrate the last decade as being wasted? Sox were compelling entertainment for most of that decade, yet Kenny gets hammered because he was a gambler and it only paid off in the first World Series title in 90+ years...hey it was a fluke....does not mean a thing....BS!

Give me a GM that gets the Sox a World Series anytime. You can have the exciting GM's that never win a ring.

That said, I am pleased with Rick/Kenny's moves since last July. I absolutely guarantee that some who are expressing optimism here today will be crushing management soon, but that is there thing.....I roll with the punches.
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  #34  
Old 12-31-2013, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Dan Marino sucks, Trent Dilfer rules, eh? The mantra of horrible sports radio callers everywhere! "This guy doesn't know how to win!" Just awesome. It's right up there with "You never played the game, so you have no right to an opinion." The last time I heard that one and asked if Vin Scully was allowed an opinion, you know what I got from the poster to whom I was responding? Crickets. Shocker.
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Butkus and Sayers come to mind, too.
Add in Karl Malone and John Stockton as well.
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  #35  
Old 12-31-2013, 11:41 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by hawkjt View Post
Some fans have short memories. In 2012, the Sox had a 3 game lead with ten days to go in the season, after leading for most of the season. If a fan could not enjoy that kind of season, not sure why they enjoy baseball at all. Sure, would have loved to finish it out, but during the season, the Sox played good ball that year...only 1 season back. Yet, fans denigrate the last decade as being wasted? Sox were compelling entertainment for most of that decade, yet Kenny gets hammered because he was a gambler and it only paid off in the first World Series title in 90+ years...hey it was a fluke....does not mean a thing....BS!

Give me a GM that gets the Sox a World Series anytime. You can have the exciting GM's that never win a ring.

That said, I am pleased with Rick/Kenny's moves since last July. I absolutely guarantee that some who are expressing optimism here today will be crushing management soon, but that is there thing.....I roll with the punches.
I really don't care about exciting moves. I want a GM with a real plan, that can build a sustainable winner. Kenny Williams had 2 playoff appearances to his name. He averaged 84 wins per year as a GM. Nothing about him was special except 2005.

I think Rick gets it. I think Rick has the baseball intelligence to build a team that can compete for years. Not every once in a while.

Yes, 2005 was an anomaly, that was the KW model. Fluke is a bad word. More, Kenny built teams capable of catching lightning in a bottle, and if/when they did, they could be dangerous. 1 year they caught lightning in a bottle.

I think Rick wants to build teams capable of winning 90 games per year, and hope they play to expectations. Not win 84 a year and hope they over achieve.

And 2012 was not bad, but it was not the prettiest brand of baseball, and the choke was really not fun to endure.

I do agree, some fans are like me, results driven. I don't enjoy bad baseball. To me, if you don't make the playoffs, its a bad year. Its not the best way to enjoy the game, but just the way I am wired.

I don't buy TV's and hope the picture is good enough. I don't buy a car hoping it does not break down, and I don't follow sports hoping to just be ok. I look at what Rick Hahn is doing and say FINALLY. I am extremely excited about the outlook of the White Sox.
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  #36  
Old 12-31-2013, 11:46 AM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I really don't care about exciting moves. I want a GM with a real plan, that can build a sustainable winner. Kenny Williams had 2 playoff appearances to his name. He averaged 84 wins per year as a GM. Nothing about him was special except 2005.

I think Rick gets it. I think Rick has the baseball intelligence to build a team that can compete for years. Not every once in a while.

Yes, 2005 was an anomaly, that was the KW model. Fluke is a bad word. More, Kenny built teams capable of catching lightning in a bottle, and if/when they did, they could be dangerous. 1 year they caught lightning in a bottle.

I think Rick wants to build teams capable of winning 90 games per year, and hope they play to expectations. Not win 84 a year and hope they over achieve.

And 2012 was not bad, but it was not the prettiest brand of baseball, and the choke was really not fun to endure.

I do agree, some fans are like me, results driven. I don't enjoy bad baseball. To me, if you don't make the playoffs, its a bad year. Its not the best way to enjoy the game, but just the way I am wired.

I don't buy TV's and hope the picture is good enough. I don't buy a car hoping it does not break down, and I don't follow sports hoping to just be ok. I look at what Rick Hahn is doing and say FINALLY. I am extremely excited about the outlook of the White Sox.

Get ready to be miserable for the next 3-4 years, cuz they are not making the playoffs for a few years. ...84 wins might seem like a far off goal.

Cannot have it both ways...face it, by your standard, you will enjoy about Sox baseball about 1 season in 10..... that is 90% misery for you.
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  #37  
Old 12-31-2013, 11:51 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by hawkjt View Post
Get ready to be miserable for the next 3-4 years, cuz they are not making the playoffs for a few years. ...84 wins might seem like a far off goal.

Cannot have it both ways...face it, by your standard, you will enjoy about Sox baseball about 1 season in 10..... that is 90% misery for you.
I don't think we are 3-4 years off, we are not the cubs. We have a really good top end of our rotation, we have a nice bullpen, and we have a vastly improved defense to go with a better lineup.

I think Hahn is not Kenny Williams, and will make the White Sox regular contenders. The best move the Sox have made in the last few years is letting Rick run the show.
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  #38  
Old 12-31-2013, 12:07 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
It's difficult to get excited until I know for sure Adam Dunn is gone from this team. He's just an energy black hole. It's been awful since the day we signed him. The guy just doesn't help teams win. The day he's gone, people need to read the signing thread of his and see how ridiculous they acted.
But there is some youth and talent on the horizon.
You took a lot of heat on this thread. Actually you've taken some hits from the beginning on Dunn. I don't assume that you think Trent Dilfer was better than Marino, or Vin Scully isn't entitled to an opinion. Nothing in your posts, and I try real hard to pay attention to everyone around here, would suggest that. I would have to say that for the most part I agree with you. He's right up there with Claudell Washington, Jaime Navarro and David Wells for me. Have a long and happy life but please be gone.

OTOH I too am more excited about the coming season than I have been in years. So far I am impressed by Hahn, actually more than that. He was given a lousy hand to play and he is playing it as well as anyone could expect.
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  #39  
Old 12-31-2013, 12:17 PM
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Brian26 Brian26 is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
You took a lot of heat on this thread. Actually you've taken some hits from the beginning on Dunn. I don't assume that you think Trent Dilfer was better than Marino, or Vin Scully isn't entitled to an opinion. Nothing in your posts, and I try real hard to pay attention to everyone around here, would suggest that. I would have to say that for the most part I agree with you. He's right up there with Claudell Washington, Jaime Navarro and David Wells for me. Have a long and happy life but please be gone.
"Worthless" may be a subjective word in this discussion, but the pile-on is unwarranted when you consider Dunn's true worth to the Sox, which would be the amount of money the Sox would have to eat of the $15 million due for 2014 to trick the Astros into taking Dunn back to the NL to play 1B. Take that dollar amount and apply it to the expected offensive production from Dunn (sub .200 hitter with record breaking strikeouts, only one of six qualifying major leaguers with a negative WAR last year).

I actually agree with the original poster. Dunn is about as worthless of a major league player, applying his contract to the situation, that has ever existed.

Edit- to be fair, Konerko was also one of those six negative WARs last year. However, to my point, he's making a buck and a half next season.
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  #40  
Old 12-31-2013, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I don't think we are 3-4 years off, we are not the cubs. We have a really good top end of our rotation, we have a nice bullpen, and we have a vastly improved defense to go with a better lineup.

I think Hahn is not Kenny Williams, and will make the White Sox regular contenders. The best move the Sox have made in the last few years is letting Rick run the show.
You might not fit this description, but I get the impression that some WSIers like these moves more than they would otherwise simply because Hahn, and NOT KW, is making them. In other words, if KW was still the GM and made these exact same moves, I think those same people would be far less excited about them.
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  #41  
Old 12-31-2013, 01:37 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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You might not fit this description, but I get the impression that some WSIers like these moves more than they would otherwise simply because Hahn, and NOT KW, is making them. In other words, if KW was still the GM and made these exact same moves, I think those same people would be far less excited about them.
Eaton, Garcia and Davidson have a lot of talent and have been ranked fairly high as prospects, but caution.

Fields, Morel, Borchard, Brian Anderson, Beckham, Simon Castro, Flowers, even Brent Lillibridge made it to around Davidson's level as a prospect at #93, have all been ranked higher or about just as good of prospects as the 3 the Sox are building around .

This is an Adam Dunn-type re-tool. Hahn is going to hit a 500 foot home run or whiff pathetically.
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  #42  
Old 12-31-2013, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Butkus and Sayers come to mind, too.
Well they just weren't Chicago Tough enough.
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  #43  
Old 12-31-2013, 02:08 PM
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Dunn is worthless, no matter his stats. He had a distinction to be higher on this list faster than any mlb player outside of santo. Although I think Rios has a shot.
That's a great link. Seeing Dunn at the top of the list and Rios #3 for active players makes me shake my head and wonder why we tried to build a team around these two.
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  #44  
Old 12-31-2013, 02:13 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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That's a great link. Seeing Dunn at the top of the list and Rios #3 for active players makes me shake my head and wonder why we tried to build a team around these two.
There's a number of good players on that list, too. I would take Ernie Banks or Luke Appling in their primes without worrying about some metaphysical energy that propels their teams to lose. They just got unlucky playing on some ****ty teams.
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  #45  
Old 12-31-2013, 02:17 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
You might not fit this description, but I get the impression that some WSIers like these moves more than they would otherwise simply because Hahn, and NOT KW, is making them. In other words, if KW was still the GM and made these exact same moves, I think those same people would be far less excited about them.
I will have to respectfully disagree here. KW on a budget was a much better GM than when he went for broke. And succeeded. If he were still the GM and was making the type of moves Hahn has made I might even be more enthusiastic than I am now. It would have shown me that he realizes both he and the team need to change. Now the thing that I as a lowly fan don't know is how much influence if any he had with Hahn in the strategy he is now taking.
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