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  #46  
Old 12-31-2013, 02:54 PM
PaleHoser PaleHoser is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
There's a number of good players on that list, too. I would take Ernie Banks or Luke Appling in their primes without worrying about some metaphysical energy that propels their teams to lose. They just got unlucky playing on some ****ty teams.
Banks and Appling played in a completely different environment.

First, players were bound to their clubs due to the Reserve Clause, so they didn't have the option to play out their contract an leave.

(Can you imagine what Banks would have made on the open market after winning back-to-back MVPs and hitting 40+ HRs for four consecutive seasons? Or Appling after hitting .388? Those numbers were compiled in their first six seasons, when they would have qualified for free agency. They both would have been long gone, and Phil Rizzuto probably wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.)

Second, Banks and Appling didn't have divisions or the wild card. Finish first overall or your season is finished.

Rios and Dunn simply have to lead their club to the fourth best record in their league once and they are in the postseason. Once in a combined 23 seasons, and have failed.

In the case of Dunn:

  • He's managed to play a full season on a team that has finished over .500 exactly once in 13 seasons (your 2012 Chicago White Sox)
  • He finished the 2008 season on the Diamondbacks, who finished 82-80. But they were 60-58 and in first place with a 1.5 game lead when the traded for him. So they managed to play .500 with him.
  • He's played for one club that lost 89, five that have lost 90 and another that lost 103.
  • And he's been a free agent twice, so he's had opportunities to sign with clubs that win who've passed on him.
It's not "bad luck". This is a simple matter of cause and effect.
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  #47  
Old 12-31-2013, 03:31 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by PaleHoser View Post
Banks and Appling played in a completely different environment.

First, players were bound to their clubs due to the Reserve Clause, so they didn't have the option to play out their contract an leave.

(Can you imagine what Banks would have made on the open market after winning back-to-back MVPs and hitting 40+ HRs for four consecutive seasons? Or Appling after hitting .388? Those numbers were compiled in their first six seasons, when they would have qualified for free agency. They both would have been long gone, and Phil Rizzuto probably wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.)

Second, Banks and Appling didn't have divisions or the wild card. Finish first overall or your season is finished.

Rios and Dunn simply have to lead their club to the fourth best record in their league once and they are in the postseason. Once in a combined 23 seasons, and have failed.

In the case of Dunn:

  • He's managed to play a full season on a team that has finished over .500 exactly once in 13 seasons (your 2012 Chicago White Sox)
  • He finished the 2008 season on the Diamondbacks, who finished 82-80. But they were 60-58 and in first place with a 1.5 game lead when the traded for him. So they managed to play .500 with him.
  • He's played for one club that lost 89, five that have lost 90 and another that lost 103.
  • And he's been a free agent twice, so he's had opportunities to sign with clubs that win who've passed on him.
It's not "bad luck". This is a simple matter of cause and effect.
I still fail to see how it is entirely the fault of one player that they did not play on winning teams. I mentioned Butkus and Sayers earlier for a reason; they are loved, and yet their only winning seasons came when they were rookies in 1965. That they were good players is because they were good players and produced, not because of whether or not their teammates were talented. Jon Garland is not a better pitcher than Chris Sale, despite the fact that the former has a world series ring and played on mostly winning Sox teams, where Sale has played on mostly mediocre and bad teams.

In Cincinnati and in Washington, Dunn produced to the benefit of his team. In Chicago, his production has failed to live up to his previous standards. But I don't see how Dunn's 38 HRs and 105 RBIs (or his .398 OBP and .529 slugging) for the 2009 Nationals somehow caused them to lose 103 games. He had a slightly worse 2010 for them, and they won 10 more games. Dunn was not the only factor as to how the team performed.

Also, while Banks and Appling played in a different era, their teams were seldom even good.
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  #48  
Old 12-31-2013, 03:37 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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"Worthless" may be a subjective word in this discussion, but the pile-on is unwarranted when you consider Dunn's true worth to the Sox, which would be the amount of money the Sox would have to eat of the $15 million due for 2014 to trick the Astros into taking Dunn back to the NL to play 1B. Take that dollar amount and apply it to the expected offensive production from Dunn (sub .200 hitter with record breaking strikeouts, only one of six qualifying major leaguers with a negative WAR last year).

I actually agree with the original poster. Dunn is about as worthless of a major league player, applying his contract to the situation, that has ever existed.

Edit- to be fair, Konerko was also one of those six negative WARs last year. However, to my point, he's making a buck and a half next season.
That was not the point to be made that has upset everyone. He said he would be worthless at a .900 OPS. Adam Dunn at a .900 OPS out of the DH position, where his negative WAR would be minimized, would likely be a 3-4 WAR player. Furthermore, its easy to say Dunn at 4 WAR is earning his 15 mil.

Yes, we all agree Dunn has been, to quote a famous WSI poster, a Bust of Epic Proportions. But if Dunn put up a .900 OPS, he would not be. That is the point everyone got pretty annoyed by. At that point, dude is just being a hater.
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  #49  
Old 12-31-2013, 06:43 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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You might not fit this description, but I get the impression that some WSIers like these moves more than they would otherwise simply because Hahn, and NOT KW, is making them. In other words, if KW was still the GM and made these exact same moves, I think those same people would be far less excited about them.
I don't think that's the case. The small moves are similar to KW small moves and those were usually applauded. For me, the difference is that Hahn hasn't traded a legitimate prospect...KW frequently did. And the Eaton and Davidson moves are simply dissimilar from any move KW ever made. KW's modus operandi would have been to try to get those players using Johnson, Semien, etc. I like the change in philosophy.
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  #50  
Old 12-31-2013, 06:53 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post

This is an Adam Dunn-type re-tool. Hahn is going to hit a 500 foot home run or whiff pathetically.
I just don't see that level of variance. Even if Davidson and Eaton flame out, it's not like we sold our future or gave away all star talent; and Reed isn't far from arbitration anyway. He made a couple of measured moves. He's got a lot more young talent he needs to acquire, both minor league and major league ready, before we're set to the point where we have both a competitive major league roster, and a minor league roster with sufficient depth that we can make necessary July moves and still have young talent infused into our major league team. Hopefully he can get some talent for the remainder of these vets, even if it is lower minors talent.
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  #51  
Old 12-31-2013, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
That was not the point to be made that has upset everyone. He said he would be worthless at a .900 OPS. Adam Dunn at a .900 OPS out of the DH position, where his negative WAR would be minimized, would likely be a 3-4 WAR player. Furthermore, its easy to say Dunn at 4 WAR is earning his 15 mil.

Yes, we all agree Dunn has been, to quote a famous WSI poster, a Bust of Epic Proportions. But if Dunn put up a .900 OPS, he would not be. That is the point everyone got pretty annoyed by. At that point, dude is just being a hater.
Exactly. He definitely hasn't earned his paycheck. But to say basically it wouldn't matter had he lived up to expectations stats-wise because he is a loser, thus meaning the teams he plays on would be losers as well is just ridiculous. There are 24 other players on the roster that contribute to the success of a team.
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  #52  
Old 12-31-2013, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I don't think that's the case. The small moves are similar to KW small moves and those were usually applauded. For me, the difference is that Hahn hasn't traded a legitimate prospect...KW frequently did. And the Eaton and Davidson moves are simply dissimilar from any move KW ever made. KW's modus operandi would have been to try to get those players using Johnson, Semien, etc. I like the change in philosophy.
I disagree. Had KW traded Santiago for Eaton, people on this board would've said he'd gotten fleeced, or even the trade of Reed for Davidson. Members here I think would've said he didn't get enough for either player. But Hahn does it and is lauded for it. I loved both moved btw. And neither trade gets made without KW's approval/support.
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  #53  
Old 12-31-2013, 07:20 PM
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Brian26 Brian26 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
That was not the point to be made that has upset everyone. He said he would be worthless at a .900 OPS. Adam Dunn at a .900 OPS out of the DH position, where his negative WAR would be minimized, would likely be a 3-4 WAR player. Furthermore, its easy to say Dunn at 4 WAR is earning his 15 mil.

Yes, we all agree Dunn has been, to quote a famous WSI poster, a Bust of Epic Proportions. But if Dunn put up a .900 OPS, he would not be. That is the point everyone got pretty annoyed by. At that point, dude is just being a hater.
I see the quote now. "Worthless, no matter what the stats."
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  #54  
Old 12-31-2013, 08:12 PM
34rancher 34rancher is offline
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The point of playing 162 games is to make the playoffs, otherwise the season is a waste. It can be less of a waste if the team is moving towards the playoffs, but it still is a waste. For those of you that are willing to settle for mediocrity, I'm sorry I was spoiled by 2000,2005, and 2008. I hate that this decade has been a waste to the tigers so far. I hate that we are at a time where we could easily be competing in even a wild card scenario and we seem to be toiling in mediocrity to almost having the worst season in white sox history.
I said it the day Adam Dunn was signed, welcome to playoff-less baseball. The man has the worst off season workout routine, refuses to change his swing at all costs, and is completely overrated. So while a player may not win a division by himself, it only takes 1 cell to have cancer. I don't want young talent emulating him and his approach to the game. He is the kind of player that people try to use stats to put on a pedastal. Well I put up a stat that he and rios are rapidly moving up the all time list in. His stats don't win, thus I called him worthless on my team. Often stats are used to explain losing or why others win. I didn't hear too many people using stats to explain the world series champs except pitching. Winners don't focus too much on stats other than winning.
And for those of you listing Marino, I would refute that he did make the playoffs several times. A perfect example is the bears game Sunday. Cutlers stats are way better than Rodgers. Do you hear packer fans caring? It's about winning and the playoffs. For fun, read the wiki page of Dunn. Interesting comments about him.
As for this season, I'm excited to see the young players, I'm just not optimistic about the playoffs, thus I see a lot of wasted time in my 2014 future. Hope that makes sense.
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  #55  
Old 12-31-2013, 08:44 PM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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I don't think any of us are thinking about the playoffs. I'm more looking forward to seeing the young guys develop. Admittedly the talent is not there yet, but I expect some ups and downs, but I also expect a step forward. At least this team will be watchable this year.
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  #56  
Old 01-01-2014, 02:45 AM
MISoxfan MISoxfan is offline
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
The point of playing 162 games is to make the playoffs, otherwise the season is a waste. It can be less of a waste if the team is moving towards the playoffs, but it still is a waste. For those of you that are willing to settle for mediocrity, I'm sorry I was spoiled by 2000,2005, and 2008. I hate that this decade has been a waste to the tigers so far. I hate that we are at a time where we could easily be competing in even a wild card scenario and we seem to be toiling in mediocrity to almost having the worst season in white sox history.
I said it the day Adam Dunn was signed, welcome to playoff-less baseball. The man has the worst off season workout routine, refuses to change his swing at all costs, and is completely overrated. So while a player may not win a division by himself, it only takes 1 cell to have cancer. I don't want young talent emulating him and his approach to the game. He is the kind of player that people try to use stats to put on a pedastal. Well I put up a stat that he and rios are rapidly moving up the all time list in. His stats don't win, thus I called him worthless on my team. Often stats are used to explain losing or why others win. I didn't hear too many people using stats to explain the world series champs except pitching. Winners don't focus too much on stats other than winning.
And for those of you listing Marino, I would refute that he did make the playoffs several times. A perfect example is the bears game Sunday. Cutlers stats are way better than Rodgers. Do you hear packer fans caring? It's about winning and the playoffs. For fun, read the wiki page of Dunn. Interesting comments about him.
As for this season, I'm excited to see the young players, I'm just not optimistic about the playoffs, thus I see a lot of wasted time in my 2014 future. Hope that makes sense.
On what planet does Cutler have better stats that Rodgers? Do you mean that one game in isolation? Yeah Cutler had a better game than Rodgers, Forte also had a better game than Lacey, do you want to debate that as well? Now Conte is another matter.
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  #57  
Old 01-01-2014, 03:19 PM
tstrike2000 tstrike2000 is offline
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One of the positives of dealing with a 99 loss team is looking forward to the future. Hahn infusing some youth to help offset some of the underachieving and veteran dead weight always gives reason for optimism.

Coupled with the garbage weather, I'm looking forward to spring training now the holidays are just about over. First, though, I'm looking forward to hearing Big Hurt's name selected, along with Maddux, Glavine, and possibly Biggio to MLB's hall of fame.
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  #58  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:43 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
This is an Adam Dunn-type re-tool. Hahn is going to hit a 500 foot home run or whiff pathetically.
I disagree with that analogy, Hahn is trying to rebuild long term. The players Hahn has acquired are viewed as pieces of the puzzle, not the final building blocks.
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  #59  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:58 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by spawn View Post
I disagree. Had KW traded Santiago for Eaton, people on this board would've said he'd gotten fleeced, or even the trade of Reed for Davidson. Members here I think would've said he didn't get enough for either player. But Hahn does it and is lauded for it. I loved both moved btw. And neither trade gets made without KW's approval/support.
Well I wouldn't have said it and I think Williams frequently got fleeced (not fleeced, but overpaid). But he rarely/ever made moves like this so there's nothing to compare it to to see what people said in the past.. No doubt Williams is approving these moves and no doubt Williams is the reason we got A Garcia. But I like Hahn's execution.
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  #60  
Old 01-01-2014, 08:41 PM
WSox597 WSox597 is offline
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
Dunn is worthless, no matter his stats. He had a distinction to be higher on this list faster than any mlb player outside of santo. Although I think Rios has a shot. And Dunn should NEVER be in the 3 slot. He's a vortex of outs and doesn't produce enough for that spot. He was on pace for the worst season in mlb history until he was benched by Ozzie. You put him on your team and you just guaranteed you are losing. I'm convinced putting him on yankees murders row and they miss the playoffs too. He's another great white whale in Chicago sports. It's depressing.
Damn, that list is depressing. There is a bunch of ex White Sox on it. Aside from Dunn who hopefully will be an ex White Sox very soon.
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