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  #31  
Old 01-01-2014, 03:40 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by SephClone89 View Post
1) Check the numbers. Mussina and Glavine are near-identical.

2) I personally wouldn't put Bagwell over Frank, but it's a lot closer than you think. Bagwell was a very good baserunner and fielder. Retired earlier than Frank so his counting stats don't quite match up, though.
Mussina - 5X All star/0 Cy Youngs
Glavine - 10X All Star/2 Cy Youngs

I know Thomas and Bagwell have similar numbers, born on the same day, Yada Yada Yada, but cumulative numbers probably count more, it's the HOF. Also, Bagwell only one 1 MVP and played in 2 AS games. I do think Bagwell is a HOF, but not before Frank.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #32  
Old 01-01-2014, 04:00 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Statistically speaking, Bagwell is about as close to Paul Konerko as he is to the Big Hurt, especially when you consider that he played in the offensive boom of the 90s. I think it speaks volumes that Bagwell was only an All Star twice. Hall of Very Very Good, if you ask me.
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  #33  
Old 01-01-2014, 04:23 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
Statistically speaking, Bagwell is about as close to Paul Konerko as he is to the Big Hurt, especially when you consider that he played in the offensive boom of the 90s. I think it speaks volumes that Bagwell was only an All Star twice. Hall of Very Very Good, if you ask me.
No, he isn't. He's a lot closer to the Big Hurt than Konerko, a much better hitter than Paulie ever was. Cumulative stats don't quite compare to Frank because he retired after 2005, but slash lines are only slightly worse while Paulie really pales in comparison to either one. Also, Bagwell was a 4-time All-Star.
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  #34  
Old 01-01-2014, 04:28 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
No, he isn't. He's a lot closer to the Big Hurt than Konerko, a much better hitter than Paulie ever was. Cumulative stats don't quite compare to Frank because he retired after 2005, but slash lines are only slightly worse while Paulie really pales in comparison to either one. Also, Bagwell was a 4-time All-Star.
My mistake. You're right, the cumulative stats don't tell the whole story. Didn't notice the OPS nearly 100 points higher. I stand corrected.

Even so, I still think the gap between him and Frank is wider than people give him credit for. This isn't a putdown of Bagwell, but I think Frank could have consistently driven in 140+ with Biggio setting the table.
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  #35  
Old 01-01-2014, 04:33 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
My mistake. You're right, the cumulative stats don't tell the whole story. Didn't notice the OPS nearly 100 points higher. I stand corrected.

Even so, I still think the gap between him and Frank is wider than people give him credit for. This isn't a putdown of Bagwell, but I think Frank could have consistently driven in 140+ with Biggio setting the table.
I would guess that Bagwell usually had a better offense around him than Thomas did.
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  #36  
Old 01-01-2014, 04:34 PM
CHISOXFAN13 CHISOXFAN13 is offline
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Why is everyone getting bent out of shape here? Nowhere does it say that's his entire ballot. Just the first three.
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  #37  
Old 01-01-2014, 05:00 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
I would guess that Bagwell usually had a better offense around him than Thomas did.
At the same time, Bagwell never had a hitter as good as Albert Belle protecting him.

Frank's the better hitter, but Bagwell wasn't that far off.
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  #38  
Old 01-01-2014, 05:01 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by CHISOXFAN13 View Post
Why is everyone getting bent out of shape here? Nowhere does it say that's his entire ballot. Just the first three.
Probably because Frank's more deserving than two people in his top three. It's a pretty absurd opinion, IMO.
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  #39  
Old 01-01-2014, 05:59 PM
Vernam Vernam is offline
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Originally Posted by CHISOXFAN13 View Post
Why is everyone getting bent out of shape here? Nowhere does it say that's his entire ballot. Just the first three.
I just presented the Gammon tweet with no comment, but since you ask: Maddux clearly belongs there, Bagwell is arguably comparable to Frank but not very arguably superior, and Mussina has no business being in anyone's 2014 top three IMO.
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  #40  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:08 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Just checking out Mussina's stats, he's got to be a first. Only twenty win season his last and 18th season at age 38.
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  #41  
Old 01-01-2014, 06:36 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Just checking out Mussina's stats, he's got to be a first. Only twenty win season his last and 18th season at age 38.
It's debatable. Most guys are when it comes to being first ballot. But the fact remains, Frank is among the best ever dozen right handed hitters the game has ever seen. You can't say that about anyone else other than Maddux. Even Glavine isn't top dozen left handed starters all time. So when someone puts those kinds of guys above Frank, it's a bit distressing.
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  #42  
Old 01-01-2014, 07:00 PM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SephClone89 View Post
1) Check the numbers. Mussina and Glavine are near-identical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Mussina - 5X All star/0 Cy Youngs
Glavine - 10X All Star/2 Cy Youngs
Those aren't actual stats.
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  #43  
Old 01-01-2014, 09:57 PM
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Brian26 Brian26 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
I would guess that Bagwell usually had a better offense around him than Thomas did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
At the same time, Bagwell never had a hitter as good as Albert Belle protecting him.

Frank's the better hitter, but Bagwell wasn't that far off.
Belle was only here for two of Frank's 15 years with the Sox, so that's not ag relevant statement in comparing the two. With that said, Frank played on generally very good Sox offensive teams. In the early part of his career, he had Raines, Cora, Robin and #9 hitter Guillen on base in front of him, and sometimes Robin, Franco, Belle and Tartabull hitting behind him.
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  #44  
Old 01-01-2014, 10:02 PM
cub killer cub killer is offline
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Default Chicks may dig the long ball, but...

Chicks may dig the long ball, but the HoF prefers real productivity. It's sweet to see Maddux and Glavine get in while Mac and Shammy get the shaft.

They should do a sequel to that commercial on induction day. "Keep the floozies, we're immortalized."
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  #45  
Old 01-02-2014, 01:26 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
At the same time, Bagwell never had a hitter as good as Albert Belle protecting him.

Frank's the better hitter, but Bagwell wasn't that far off.
Thomas had Belle protecting him for two seasons, one of which was his worst offensive season of the 20th century. The first wasn't one of his MVP years.

Your conclusion and the support for your conclusion don't seem to approach the reality I remember watching.
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