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  #91  
Old 07-25-2017, 10:13 AM
CHISOXFAN13 CHISOXFAN13 is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
A bigger issue I see here too is that not a single drafted player from the Hahn era is listed on there. Sox have been drafting in the top half for a few seasons now.

Collins and Fulmer dropping off the list is concerning. Rodon is still a big question mark.

Is player development still a glaring issue here?
Seven of the next eight players on the list after Cease were drafted in the first or second round the last three years, so clearly they are all highly respected still.
  #92  
Old 07-25-2017, 10:38 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Fulmer could end up as a high-leverage late inning reliever, or as a reliever who can give you three innings. Both of those roles have value.

Catchers have three parts of their game to refine, whereas other position players only have two. This is why they take longer to develop. Collins has been working hard on his defense because the Sox want him to, and believe he will, stick at catcher. Since the All Star break, his hitting has improved. Prior to the break, he had virtually no protection in the lineup, and with his discerning batting eye, opposing pitchers had no reason to throw him anything other than garbage.

Several of our prospects dropped because numerous 2017 first round picks got slotted into the Top 100. And then there are other prospects who have rocketed into the Top 100 this year, like Fernando Tatis, Jr. A year from now, maybe we'll see Micker Adolfo in the Top 100. Hansen and Burger, too. And I'd expect Collins to play his way back into the Top 100.

Middle infield and LHP seem to be the biggest organizational weaknesses at this point, but that's all relative, because outfield, corner infield and RHP are exceptionally strong, and catcher is no longer the dumpster fire it was 18 months ago.
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  #93  
Old 07-25-2017, 10:43 AM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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I also believe that Skoug was a hell of a pickup. We have catching depth, so I am not overly concerned about Collins.
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  #94  
Old 07-25-2017, 10:46 AM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
MLB.com has updated their Top 100 prospects to reflect the 2017 amateur draft. The Sox Top 30 is also updated:

Moncada (1 overall)
Jimenez (7)
Kopech (12)
Robert (26)
Rutherford (45)
Lopez (60)
Giolito (61)
Cease (69)
Hansen
Collins
Dunning
Fulmer
Burger
Burdi
Adams
Adolfo
Sheets
Basabe
Stephens
Tilson
Guerrero
Clarkin
Skoug
Fisher
Call
Bummer
Nunez
Martinez
Flores
Delmonico
The White Sox have 3 (Kopech at #12) in the top 100 before any other team has 2 (TB with #14 and #18) and TB and Atlanta get to 3 just before the Sox hit 4 with Luis Robert at #26. So, strength at the top of the list. Not surprisingly the Sox have only 8 on the list as Collins and Fulmer dropped off. Atlanta has 9.

What truly blows my mind though is the depth of the Sox prospect list. Guys like Dane Dunning #11, Jake Burger #13, and Spencer Adams #15 are listed in the second ten! And you have to get all the way down to Charlie Tilson at #20 before I see someone that I have no expectations for. And there are a couple guys after him that I do expect to see as productive major leaguers. Ridiculous depth.

I like this ranking. I think it is about right. I too am a little surprised Burger didn't crack the top 100 given his strong start but if he keeps it up I don't see how he doesn't get on the list next time around. The sample size on Burger, Sheets, and Skoug is small enough to keep them lower on the list than they may otherwise show up. My hope is that Hansen, Dunning, and Adolfo keep it up and do some serious climbing up the rankings (Dunning actually fell a spot!!! LOL).

Not sure I'd change anything on this list. Moncada should graduate off of it soon as Engel did recently. Nickey Delmonico gets a little recognition in at #30. Wonder who gets added (Yrizarri?) when Moncada graduates off of it later this year. Jordan Guerrero earned himself a nice climb back onto the list as well. One of several lefties near the bottom of the list with potential futures in Chicago. That's a good thing to see as well.
  #95  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:01 AM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
The White Sox have 3 (Kopech at #12) in the top 100 before any other team has 2 (TB with #14 and #18) and TB and Atlanta get to 3 just before the Sox hit 4 with Luis Robert at #26. So, strength at the top of the list. Not surprisingly the Sox have only 8 on the list as Collins and Fulmer dropped off. Atlanta has 9.

What truly blows my mind though is the depth of the Sox prospect list. Guys like Dane Dunning #11, Jake Burger #13, and Spencer Adams #15 are listed in the second ten! And you have to get all the way down to Charlie Tilson at #20 before I see someone that I have no expectations for. And there are a couple guys after him that I do expect to see as productive major leaguers. Ridiculous depth.

I like this ranking. I think it is about right. I too am a little surprised Burger didn't crack the top 100 given his strong start but if he keeps it up I don't see how he doesn't get on the list next time around. The sample size on Burger, Sheets, and Skoug is small enough to keep them lower on the list than they may otherwise show up. My hope is that Hansen, Dunning, and Adolfo keep it up and do some serious climbing up the rankings (Dunning actually fell a spot!!! LOL).

Not sure I'd change anything on this list. Moncada should graduate off of it soon as Engel did recently. Nickey Delmonico gets a little recognition in at #30. Wonder who gets added (Yrizarri?) when Moncada graduates off of it later this year. Jordan Guerrero earned himself a nice climb back onto the list as well. One of several lefties near the bottom of the list with potential futures in Chicago. That's a good thing to see as well.
Crazy thing about this is that we have probably two or three more years of adding top tier talent via higher draft picks and international signings (in 2 years due to Roberts). Depth will only continue to improve, and this list will look completely different next year.

If we assume that only half pan out, we can successfully assume that 4 of the "star" projects will do well, but that also means that those other highly rated yet not "stud" projects will also do well enough. From the current crop, we could see 10 or so in the majors.

This is where you need to find the rest via free agency or continued draft depth.

The most important thing to me is that the White Sox make this a philosophy. Always build a sustainable farm system, and continue to have a great mix of prospects and free agents.

Never trade the entire farm, but use it when you are on the cusp of contention and need a stud.
  #96  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:08 AM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by CHISOXFAN13 View Post
Seven of the next eight players on the list after Cease were drafted in the first or second round the last three years, so clearly they are all highly respected still.
When compared to the rest of the league, we don't have any of our own draft picks making the 100 list. And these are high draft choices the past 3 drafts.

Now, it's only a list and an opinion. And possibly those putting the list together are hesitant to keep stacking the deck with more Sox names.
  #97  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:11 AM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Realistically, I think that most of the pitching prospects we have will either A. be in the bullpen or B. be a starter.

I think SP: Lopez, Giolito, Kopech, Hansen/ Dunning, Guerrero/ Adams

Bullpen: Cease, Stephens, Adams/Guerrero, Bummer, Hansen/ Dunning, Burdi, and Fulmer.

Keep in mind that I am not finding space for Clarkin who seems to have regained his "stuff".

I think we have an obvious logjam coming, and I expect some combination of these guys will be traded sooner rather that later. Specifically one or two of the Clarkin, Adams, Guerrero, Hansen, and Dunning types.
  #98  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:13 AM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
When compared to the rest of the league, we don't have any of our own draft picks making the 100 list. And these are high draft choices the past 3 drafts.

Now, it's only a list and an opinion. And possibly those putting the list together are hesitant to keep stacking the deck with more Sox names.
I think your last point holds some logic here.

Realistically speaking, Hansen should be on that list. He has flashed his potential well.
  #99  
Old 07-25-2017, 11:45 AM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
If we assume that only half pan out, we can successfully assume that 4 of the "star" projects will do well, but that also means that those other highly rated yet not "stud" projects will also do well enough. From the current crop, we could see 10 or so in the majors.

This is where you need to find the rest via free agency or continued draft depth.

The most important thing to me is that the White Sox make this a philosophy. Always build a sustainable farm system, and continue to have a great mix of prospects and free agents.

Never trade the entire farm, but use it when you are on the cusp of contention and need a stud.
I am an optimist so I look at the list and only see a few guys I have my doubts about but given your 50% target the results are still very impressive whether guys make it to average major league starter or All-Star potential.

If you look through the outfielders: Jiminez, Robert, Rutherford, Adolfo, Basabe, Tilson, Fisher, and Call and say that Jiminez, Robert, and Adolfo become starters with Fisher as your fourth while Rutherford, Basabe, Tilson, and Call flop then you would be very, very happy. Even if you simply go every other outfielder and say Jiminez, Rutherford, and Basabe are your starters with Fisher as your fourth you would still be very happy given it would mean Basabe reaching his potential rather than his current results. A fast switch-hitting, good fielding center fielder with power flanked by a leftie hitting left fielder with high average and perhaps some power and a right handed hitting power hitter in right with a strong arm sounds like one of the best outfields we've ever had.

Similarly with the pitchers. If you say Kopech and Lopez make it while Giolito and Cease do not and Hansen and Dunning make it while Fulmer and Burdi do not and Adams makes it while Stephens does not and Guerrero and Bummer make it while Clarkin, Martinez, and Flores do not then you are still in outstanding shape with Kopech, Lopez, Hansen, Dunning, and Adams starting and lefties Guerrero and Bummer in the bullpen filled out by players acquired elsewhere (or failed starters like Cease and Giolito and Fulmer,etc.)

The place this breaks down some is the infield where the prospect list has some very promising players but is thinner than elsewhere. But here you could look at some of the young guys already in the majors. If Burger doesn't make and you are stuck with Davidson at third that might not be all that bad if he can keep it up and the other prospects make it so that he hits lower in the order. If Moncada makes it but Sheets does not and we have to live with Jose Abreu at first a few more years then I doubt many tears will be shed. Besides the kid Sam Abbot is hitting well in Arizona so maybe he makes it and Sheets does not. And, as you say, there are at least two and probably three, more drafts with the Sox at the top of the order to fill out some infield depth, or elsewhere, as needed not to mention the eventuality of a free agent or two near the end of the rebuild.

I gotta go buy some shades.
  #100  
Old 07-25-2017, 12:31 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Originally Posted by Andrew C White View Post
I am an optimist so I look at the list and only see a few guys I have my doubts about but given your 50% target the results are still very impressive whether guys make it to average major league starter or All-Star potential.

If you look through the outfielders: Jiminez, Robert, Rutherford, Adolfo, Basabe, Tilson, Fisher, and Call and say that Jiminez, Robert, and Adolfo become starters with Fisher as your fourth while Rutherford, Basabe, Tilson, and Call flop then you would be very, very happy. Even if you simply go every other outfielder and say Jiminez, Rutherford, and Basabe are your starters with Fisher as your fourth you would still be very happy given it would mean Basabe reaching his potential rather than his current results. A fast switch-hitting, good fielding center fielder with power flanked by a leftie hitting left fielder with high average and perhaps some power and a right handed hitting power hitter in right with a strong arm sounds like one of the best outfields we've ever had.

Similarly with the pitchers. If you say Kopech and Lopez make it while Giolito and Cease do not and Hansen and Dunning make it while Fulmer and Burdi do not and Adams makes it while Stephens does not and Guerrero and Bummer make it while Clarkin, Martinez, and Flores do not then you are still in outstanding shape with Kopech, Lopez, Hansen, Dunning, and Adams starting and lefties Guerrero and Bummer in the bullpen filled out by players acquired elsewhere (or failed starters like Cease and Giolito and Fulmer,etc.)

The place this breaks down some is the infield where the prospect list has some very promising players but is thinner than elsewhere. But here you could look at some of the young guys already in the majors. If Burger doesn't make and you are stuck with Davidson at third that might not be all that bad if he can keep it up and the other prospects make it so that he hits lower in the order. If Moncada makes it but Sheets does not and we have to live with Jose Abreu at first a few more years then I doubt many tears will be shed. Besides the kid Sam Abbot is hitting well in Arizona so maybe he makes it and Sheets does not. And, as you say, there are at least two and probably three, more drafts with the Sox at the top of the order to fill out some infield depth, or elsewhere, as needed not to mention the eventuality of a free agent or two near the end of the rebuild.

I gotta go buy some shades.
I am pretty high on Rutherford mostly because he seems to have a great hit tool. He is lacking the power that many projected at the moment, but a high average outfielder still has some play in the major leagues.

Also, I think that the infield looks okay assuming that Anderson corrects and Moncada pans out. We have depth where we need: Pitching, Catching, and outfield. We lack depth where we have some decent players or some hopeful players: Abreu, Davidson, Anderson, and Moncada.

Using the 50% draw, we can have Anderson and Moncada never meet expectations, but we should still have some solid outfielders and catching prospects to go along with decent pitching as well.

Everything I have read about Basabe tells me he has great potential to either A. become a stud or B. play as a utility for a successful club. That's not bad to me.

Jimenez is a sure thing at this point. Nothing tells me he will flop. I feel safe with catching since we have Collins/ Skoug/ Zavala in the minors.

My only concern is that the White Sox may be missing a true "ace" for their staff in the future.

That is assuming Kopech never has a true grasp of how to control his stuff or Giolito doesn't pan out.

Rodon seems like a 3 to 5 at best. Lopez seems like a two at best and a four at worst. Kopech is a solid 2 for now with the potential to be a one. Giolito has 1 stuff but is out of the picture altogether at the moment. The rest profile as steady mid-rotation starting prospects. I would be happy to have the back end filled with Guerrero/ Adams/ Stephens/ Rodon if it comes to it. I do want that legitimate anchor.

If we will be serious about contending for the World Series, we will need him.

Granted, we have a couple more drafts to go with the possibility of drafting a stud so patience is key.
  #101  
Old 07-25-2017, 12:45 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Several of our prospects dropped because numerous 2017 first round picks got slotted into the Top 100. And then there are other prospects who have rocketed into the Top 100 this year, like Fernando Tatis, Jr.
We traded the #59 MLB prospect (18 yo SS, holding his own in the Midwest League) for James ****ing Shields....breaks my heart.
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  #102  
Old 07-25-2017, 12:47 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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We traded the #59 MLB prospect (18 yo SS, holding his own in the Midwest League) for James ****ing Shields....breaks my heart.
I am not going to lie: this one hurts the most given what we are trying to do.
  #103  
Old 07-25-2017, 05:21 PM
Andrew C White Andrew C White is offline
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We traded the #59 MLB prospect (18 yo SS, holding his own in the Midwest League) for James ****ing Shields....breaks my heart.
No question about it. It was a bad trade at the time. It has been a bad trade inbetween. It is a bad trade now. It will have been a bad trade in the future.
  #104  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:44 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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We traded the #59 MLB prospect (18 yo SS, holding his own in the Midwest League) for James ****ing Shields....breaks my heart.
I'm willing to accept it as collateral damage at this point, in my mind this was what probably broke the camel's back and finally convinced management that this patchwork nonsense had to end.
  #105  
Old 07-25-2017, 08:02 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Great Falls guys still doing some work:
Anthony Villa another HR tonight, #8. 3 for 5 for the night.

Dedelow 2 for 5 with 2 RBIs.

Logan Taylor out of Louisville is off to a nice start since signing. Hitting .478 in 10 games.
Anthony Villa can't be stopped. Another 2 run shot tonight. #9.
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