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  #256  
Old 01-25-2020, 06:11 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The Mets are trying to unload Cespedes and Lowrie, thus far to no avail.

For a 1-year commitment of $18, we could take both of them to fill out the roster, and maybe we can get a guy like David Peterson for our troubles. Neither guy would need to be accommodated with starterís playing time, so the goofball excuse of blocking such baseball immortals as Nomar Mazara and Leury Garcia is rendered moot.
That sounds like a terrible idea.

Hey, if The Sox just take $18 million and distribute it to players already on the roster, will that be good enough to end this crusade?
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  #257  
Old 01-25-2020, 06:34 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The Mets are trying to unload Cespedes and Lowrie, thus far to no avail.

For a 1-year commitment of $18, we could take both of them to fill out the roster, and maybe we can get a guy like David Peterson for our troubles. Neither guy would need to be accommodated with starterís playing time, so the goofball excuse of blocking such baseball immortals as Nomar Mazara and Leury Garcia is rendered moot.
Trade away prospects for 1 year of 35 year olds Cespedes and Lowrie and take on their $18M in salary just so that we can "win" the payroll race against the Twins and mollify the portion of the fan base that is pissed off at the moves the Sox made this winter? Sounds reasonable.

To clarify, you think the plan to give Nomar Mazara a chance to succeed is a "goofball" idea?

Also, I never heard anyone in the Sox organization even remotely suggest that they are looking to give Leury Garcia an everyday role and that they don't want to block him. Sure, that's a totally goofball idea. Too bad no one ever even suggested that's the plan. If they did, I must have totally missed it. Can you provide a link that suggests this?.....and not something someone may have said in 2015, either.
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  #258  
Old 01-25-2020, 08:19 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
That sounds like a terrible idea.

Hey, if The Sox just take $18 million and distribute it to players already on the roster, will that be good enough to end this crusade?
Yeah, letís just let Reinsdorf keep it and pretend that this offseason was infinitely better than it actually was. I canít wait to hang that Fiscal Responsibility banner in April of 2021.
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  #259  
Old 01-25-2020, 08:34 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Hitmen77 View Post
Trade away prospects for 1 year of 35 year olds Cespedes and Lowrie and take on their $18M in salary just so that we can "win" the payroll race against the Twins and mollify the portion of the fan base that is pissed off at the moves the Sox made this winter? Sounds reasonable.

To clarify, you think the plan to give Nomar Mazara a chance to succeed is a "goofball" idea?

Also, I never heard anyone in the Sox organization even remotely suggest that they are looking to give Leury Garcia an everyday role and that they don't want to block him. Sure, that's a totally goofball idea. Too bad no one ever even suggested that's the plan. If they did, I must have totally missed it. Can you provide a link that suggests this?.....and not something someone may have said in 2015, either.
No, we would be getting a prospect, not giving prospects.

We donít have any LHP prospects at the upper levels who figure to be ready to contribute in 2020 or 2021. Peterson would be a possible solution to that problem.

And I specifically said that Cespedes and Lowrie would not require starterís playing time, meaning that the famed Nomar Mazara would still get a majority of the playing time. If anything, Mazara can get even more playing time as a DH and help hide Jose Abreuís .299 OBP against RHP.

And yes, I would much rather give playing time to Lowrie on the off-chance he can recapture some of the magic he had in Oakland than see Leury Garcia ever take another trip to home plate in a White Sox uniform. If they can shed Leuryís money in the deal and defray some of the cost, even better.
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  #260  
Old 01-26-2020, 09:49 AM
anewman35 anewman35 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
It sure as hell isnít Reinsdorfís Millions, either.
Would you be happier of Reinsdorf just took $20 million dollars and set it on fire? Because many of your suggested moves don't amount to much more than that.

Don't spent money just to spend money (and players) just to spend it. Yes, know the point is to get prospect, but you're probably also trading something away (and you imagine losing a future star because of a dumb trade like this?). And the more you spend now, the less flexibility later. Just no reason for it.
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  #261  
Old 01-26-2020, 10:13 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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A bizarre and inaccurate claim. Again, Ozuna put up more WAR in his disappointing, poor defense ridden 2019 season than Mazara has put up in his entire career. You might as well claim that Yolmer Sanchez (who btw put up 1.4 WAR more than Mazara and got cut) is an "Albies-light".

Trading for Mazara was a cheapout, there's no way around this.
The cheapout was not signing Harper or Machado the year before.
The cheapout was not going 20% above market to get Wheeler.

Last season, Ozuna had a .330 OBP and .474 slugging, for an offensive WAR of 8.
Mazara had a .318 OBP and a .469 slugging, for an offensive WAR of -3.6. I don't understand WAR enough to know how a modest difference in stats yields a massive difference in WAR ( I assume it is based on the home park).
Still, nothing compelling about Ozuna to warrant a long-term tie up at this point. It would be like a Melky signing.
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  #262  
Old 01-26-2020, 10:29 AM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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The cheapout was not signing Harper or Machado the year before.
The cheapout was not going 20% above market to get Wheeler.
Agreed on Machado. That was an embarrassing day for the franchise. I'm less livid on Wheeler. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the idea that Wheeler is a big gamble and maybe not worth a huge investment.

Quote:
Last season, Ozuna had a .330 OBP and .474 slugging, for an offensive WAR of 8.
Mazara had a .318 OBP and a .469 slugging, for an offensive WAR of -3.6. I don't understand WAR enough to know how a modest difference in stats yields a massive difference in WAR ( I assume it is based on the home park).
I'll be totally honest: I'm not sure how WAR works either and I have a suspicion that it overrates defense. But it is the gold standard that everyone uses now to evaluate and compare players, so who am I to question it? Even using old-fashioned stats, do note that Ozuna had 10 more home runs and .10 more OBP.

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Still, nothing compelling about Ozuna to warrant a long-term tie up at this point. It would be like a Melky signing.
Long-term tie up? Dude just signed a 1-year contract in Atlanta. Yeah there are rumors that he rejected longer deals that were worth less, but it does not appear the Sox would have needed to give Ozuna a large number of years to obtain his services.
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  #263  
Old 01-26-2020, 12:34 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
The cheapout was not signing Harper or Machado the year before.
The cheapout was not going 20% above market to get Wheeler.

Last season, Ozuna had a .330 OBP and .474 slugging, for an offensive WAR of 8.
Mazara had a .318 OBP and a .469 slugging, for an offensive WAR of -3.6. I don't understand WAR enough to know how a modest difference in stats yields a massive difference in WAR ( I assume it is based on the home park).
Still, nothing compelling about Ozuna to warrant a long-term tie up at this point. It would be like a Melky signing.
And.....Yoan Moncada delivered a higher OPS than Machado, .915 for Yoan vs. .796 for Manny (without the douchebaggery or the $270,000,000 commitment going forward. I'll take Moncada at 3rd and Madrigal at 2nd over Machado for $30M and Moncada at 2nd (where he was awful, and as he ages, will need to move back to 3rd anyway) and no room for Madrigal.

I don't think avoiding the "20% above market" move for Wheeler is being cheap, probably just maintaining some level of discipline vs. being reckless-

The narrative that some how, in their current mode, that the Sox are trying to do this "on the cheap" is a false narrative IMHO- I think they are finding the right balance of beginning to "go for it" within the window of this group of young talent while avoiding saddling themselves with the type of contracts that result in the kind of offseason the Northsiders are having while their window SHOULD still be open but they are paralyzed to make any of the moves they need to make (current depth chart has an outfield of Schwarber/Happ/Hayward, with Horner as their 2B, Chatwood in the rotation, and a mess of a bullpen.)

IF they are clearly contending in 2020- the approach Hahn has taken has left them with some nice room to add to the payroll as needed.
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  #264  
Old 01-26-2020, 12:54 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
No, we would be getting a prospect, not giving prospects.

We don’t have any LHP prospects at the upper levels who figure to be ready to contribute in 2020 or 2021. Peterson would be a possible solution to that problem.

And I specifically said that Cespedes and Lowrie would not require starter’s playing time, meaning that the famed Nomar Mazara would still get a majority of the playing time. If anything, Mazara can get even more playing time as a DH and help hide Jose Abreu’s .299 OBP against RHP.

And yes, I would much rather give playing time to Lowrie on the off-chance he can recapture some of the magic he had in Oakland than see Leury Garcia ever take another trip to home plate in a White Sox uniform. If they can shed Leury’s money in the deal and defray some of the cost, even better.
Cespedes absolutely rakes vs. LHP (when healthy)- but it's been a long time since he was healthy, and there are so many issues with his work ethic, etc.- I'd rather take a (cheap) flier on Puig vs. bringing this guy into our clubhouse.

Lowrie (using his last healthy season- 2018) brings more power than Leury- just in an older, more expensive, less versatile (cannot help in the outfield), slower (zero SBs in 2018) package. Counting on a "bounce back" season for a 36 yo 2nd baseman who just missed a complete season due to injury seems like "wishcasting".

That leaves us with the value of the prospect in the deal- Peterson- a 24 yo prospect with an average fastball coming off a AA season of 3-6, 4.63 ERA and and OBA of .263- sounds more like Kody Madeiros than a guy worth paying $18M of payroll to bring over.

Hard pass.
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  #265  
Old 01-26-2020, 01:20 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
Cespedes absolutely rakes vs. LHP (when healthy)- but it's been a long time since he was healthy, and there are so many issues with his work ethic, etc.- I'd rather take a (cheap) flier on Puig vs. bringing this guy into our clubhouse.

Lowrie (using his last healthy season- 2018) brings more power than Leury- just in an older, more expensive, less versatile (cannot help in the outfield), slower (zero SBs in 2018) package. Counting on a "bounce back" season for a 36 yo 2nd baseman who just missed a complete season due to injury seems like "wishcasting".

That leaves us with the value of the prospect in the deal- Peterson- a 24 yo prospect with an average fastball coming off a AA season of 3-6, 4.63 ERA and and OBA of .263- sounds more like Kody Madeiros than a guy worth paying $18M of payroll to bring over.

Hard pass.
Kodi Medeiros is a bad comp. Medeirosís HR/9 is nearly double Petersonís. Medeirosís BB/9 is a full 2.5 higher than Petersonís. Petersonís FIP of 3.19 was a full run lower than his ERA of 4.19 in 2019.

We need to get cracking on accumulating some more farm depth, especially pitching depth. If one of Cespedes or Lowrie turns it around, itís basically gravy.

I donít even really care about Lowrie one way or the other. Rumor is that the Aís are interested in a reunion, so Iím fine with punting him over there and saving some money in the process.

Send Leury to the Mets, shedding $3.25. Send Lowrie and about $8 or $9 to the Aís, shedding another $3 or $4 and getting back some insignificant return from the Aís. That moves us to about $11 or $12 for Peterson and Cespedes instead of $18 for Peterson, Cespedes, and Lowrie.
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  #266  
Old 01-26-2020, 01:46 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
And.....Yoan Moncada delivered a higher OPS than Machado, .915 for Yoan vs. .796 for Manny (without the douchebaggery or the $270,000,000 commitment going forward. I'll take Moncada at 3rd and Madrigal at 2nd over Machado for $30M and Moncada at 2nd (where he was awful, and as he ages, will need to move back to 3rd anyway) and no room for Madrigal.
Nobody is happier than me that Yoan Moncada emerged as one of the top young hitters in the AL in 2019, and I'm the creator of #BUSTWATCH. But it's not an either/or between Machado and Yoan. We could have had both. Manny Machado had a disappointing 2019 but is a future HoFer and we could have had him in our lineup for a decade.

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I don't think avoiding the "20% above market" move for Wheeler is being cheap, probably just maintaining some level of discipline vs. being reckless
Agreed.

Quote:
The narrative that some how, in their current mode, that the Sox are trying to do this "on the cheap" is a false narrative IMHO- I think they are finding the right balance of beginning to "go for it" within the window of this group of young talent while avoiding saddling themselves with the type of contracts that result in the kind of offseason the Northsiders are having while their window SHOULD still be open but they are paralyzed to make any of the moves they need to make (current depth chart has an outfield of Schwarber/Happ/Hayward, with Horner as their 2B, Chatwood in the rotation, and a mess of a bullpen.)

IF they are clearly contending in 2020- the approach Hahn has taken has left them with some nice room to add to the payroll as needed.
But nobody is saying sign Ozuna to a long, Heyward-like deal. Mohoney and I are arguing for taking on short-term contracts that improve the 2020 on the field product while leaving financial flexibility for the 2022 Sox.
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  #267  
Old 01-26-2020, 04:05 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
The cheapout was not going 20% above market to get Wheeler.
20%, I thought it was 25%? Let's keep our made up, no basis in reality numbers consistent please...
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  #268  
Old 01-26-2020, 04:45 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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That sounds like a terrible idea.

Hey, if The Sox just take $18 million and distribute it to players already on the roster, will that be good enough to end this crusade?
This made me laugh.

And no, I think the crusade continues with different goal posts.
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  #269  
Old 01-26-2020, 05:41 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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This made me laugh.

And no, I think the crusade continues with different goal posts.
Nah. The goalpost are staying right where they are, and Reinsdorf is double doinking.
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  #270  
Old 01-26-2020, 05:55 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Nah. The goalpost are staying right where they are, and Reinsdorf is double doinking.
Right because you have inside access to the books and are privy to the discussions about what the budget is, how much surplus is available and what the plans are to do with said surplus.

Oh no, that's right... you have no clue about any of those things... none of us do outside the organization and MLB...
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