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  #46  
Old 09-07-2019, 10:39 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Yeah, all we need is for the 30 teams in the majors to get more Nolan Ryans, Steve Carltons, and Tom Seavers. No problem!
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  #47  
Old 09-08-2019, 02:51 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Yeah, all we need is for the 30 teams in the majors to get more Nolan Ryans, Steve Carltons, and Tom Seavers. No problem!

Yes, the dilution of pitching talent is one of the factors in exaggerating the offensive achievements of contemporary offensive stars.
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  #48  
Old 09-08-2019, 06:51 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Yes, the dilution of pitching talent is one of the factors in exaggerating the offensive achievements of contemporary offensive stars.
Because there were so many Ryans, Carltons, and Seavers before?

You have the tendency to cherry pick individual moments in games, or individual players, specifically because they are the exception to the rule. It isnít very persuasive when youíre using them to make points about long-term changes to the game.
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  #49  
Old 09-08-2019, 02:44 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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I'm not cherry-picking at all. Examples abound to disprove the irrational conclusions of global statistics to make broad assumptions. Offering a few of the most dramatic that immediately come to mind isn't cherry-picking. Brushing aside examples that contradict what you want to believe as as outliers with accusations of cherry-picking is ignoring reality.

It simply isn't true that facing more pitchers in a game makes hitting inherently more difficult. When a team needs more pitchers to cover a game in a league that has more teams at a time when there are fewer Americans playing baseball and fewer developmental leagues, diluting the already diluted talent pool, hitters are going to face the great pitchers less frequently. If Wilbur Wood pitches 334 innings with an ERA of 1.91 (not because he was throwing hard, but because he was often unhittable), cutting his innings by a third is going to require more than 110 innings from the bullpen. In rawer statistical terms, Wood in 1971 had WHIP of 1. N one working out of the bullpen who pitched more than 2 innings had a WHIP under 1.2, and working the bullpen another 110 innings likely wouldn't have done any good for its effectiveness, which benefited from the staff pitching 46 complete games. That is, the bullpen only had to appear in 116 games.

It isn't true that hitting is more difficult today because they face harder pitching, there are plenty of examples of teams with star pitchers who aren't the hardest on their team. The abundance of harder throwing pitchers has hitters adjusting to a higher velocity, and there are certainly hitters who won't catch up to a 100 mph fastball (they said that about Gordon Beckham, hence the not-at-all cherry-picked example), but it still comes down to pitchers being able to upset hitters' timing.

And I've never seen any use for WAR, as I've explained.

There is an old joke that I heard in high school, perhaps in Dick Allen's MVP season. A scientist trains a frog to jump on command and measures the distance. He cuts off one leg at a time, starting with the front, and measures each reduced distance until the legless frog doesn't move. He concludes that legless frogs are deaf.

The joke comes to mind when I hear and read baseball fans drawing conclusions from global statistics.
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  #50  
Old 09-08-2019, 03:44 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Except it simply is true. Facing the same pitcher multiple times in the same game improves hittersí output with each additional matchup. Hitters fare substantially worse the first time they face a pitcher in a game.

These are facts. You donít acknowledge them as facts. Further discussion is pointless.
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  #51  
Old 09-08-2019, 04:56 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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It depends on the pitcher. It depends on the hitter. If a pitcher is good enough, he is better than the reliever that follows him. Friday night, the Sox essentially lost because Giolito couldn't go nine innings a day after the Sox won in a game where Lopez went nine inning. The only hit he gave up was to a hitter the first time he faced him. He allowed as many baserunners his first time through the lineup as he did over the next seven innings.

A safe assumption, because assumptions are the best way to describe conclusions based on baseball statistics, is that limiting pitching changes will even further advantages to contemporary hitters who already have an advantage over hitters decades ago because of the current dilution of pitching talent, facing the best pitchers less often. In 1940, Bob Feller made eight starts against the White Sox. This year, Justin Verlander has made/will make only one start against the White Sox.

While it's true that many more no-hitters, even perfect games have been broken up in the eight and ninth innings than have been pitched (defining such games as those pitched by a single pitcher), the effect on overall hitting is not such as to give hitters of 50 years ago a statistical advantage over hitters of today. Although you won't find it in the statistics you're referencing, it is a fact that whenever you go to the bullpen, you don't really know what you are going to get. Some pitchers are more reliable than others, but playing the percentages in baseball is vastly different from playing percentages in blackjack.

The big problem with the conclusions reached from baseball statistics is that here is no scientific controls, or can there be. Statistics are accomplishments (and lack thereof) from which you can make judgements.
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  #52  
Old 09-08-2019, 08:59 PM
34rancher 34rancher is offline
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Personally I think the biggest difference in the game is the bat. Think how many shattered or cracked bats you see compared to 20-30 years ago.
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  #53  
Old 09-08-2019, 10:58 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
Personally I think the biggest difference in the game is the bat. Think how many shattered or cracked bats you see compared to 20-30 years ago.
That's been fixed. They banned the hybrid bats a few years ago since then no more shattering. Can't remember the last time I saw one come apart at the seams like used to be common before they changed the rule.
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  #54  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:42 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Baseball fans know Trout more than anyone but if you ask the general public writ large I wouldn’t be stunned if more people recognize Pujols than Trout.
I was actually going for Ohtani with my comment. I think Ohtani is a much flashier, charismatic player than Trout. While the media circus around Ohtani has largely died down (despite his excellent performance as a hitter lately) there was a time not long ago when Ohtani was getting far more press and attention than Trout.

Pujols is also more famous than Trout, though not for deeds committed in Anaheim.

My point is, anyone who looks at the stats declares that Trout is one of the Wonders of the World (and rightfully so) but he has so little personality and so little pop culture presence that I'm not sure anyone other than the statheads and hardcore fans even know he's out there. Casual fans largely don't know him. Playing for a bad west coast team doesn't help either.
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  #55  
Old 09-09-2019, 03:51 PM
hoosiersoxfan hoosiersoxfan is offline
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
I was actually going for Ohtani with my comment. I think Ohtani is a much flashier, charismatic player than Trout. While the media circus around Ohtani has largely died down (despite his excellent performance as a hitter lately) there was a time not long ago when Ohtani was getting far more press and attention than Trout.

Pujols is also more famous than Trout, though not for deeds committed in Anaheim.

My point is, anyone who looks at the stats declares that Trout is one of the Wonders of the World (and rightfully so) but he has so little personality and so little pop culture presence that I'm not sure anyone other than the statheads and hardcore fans even know he's out there. Casual fans largely don't know him. Playing for a bad west coast team doesn't help either.
I stayed the night in the city on Saturday and happened to be at the same hotel the Angels were staying at. Didn't happen to see any of the players but the team bus was outside waiting to take them to the game along with a whole lot of young kids with Mike Trout posters hoping for an autograph when he came out. None of them had Pujols, Ohtani, or any other Angels players posters.
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  #56  
Old 09-15-2019, 03:55 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Mike Trout's season is over. He'll be undergoing foot surgery.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/a...-foot-surgery/

His last appearance in a game this year was Sept. 7 vs. the Sox when he appeared as a pinch-hitter, was intentionally walked, and then left the game for a pinch runner.
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  #57  
Old 09-17-2019, 04:22 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
Because there were so many Ryans, Carltons, and Seavers before?

You have the tendency to cherry pick individual moments in games, or individual players, specifically because they are the exception to the rule. It isn’t very persuasive when you’re using them to make points about long-term changes to the game.
The ratio of innings pitched to the total was much higher for those guys. 24 to 26 teams with the elite pitchers throwing 50-100 innings more than elite pitchers today spread across thirty teams. The elite relievers throwing 100-140 innings too, you'd probably face a team's top 6 pitchers 90% of the time. That's the top 150 pitchers in baseball compared with close to 400 pitchers in today's game.
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Last edited by TheVulture; 09-17-2019 at 04:33 PM.
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  #58  
Old 09-17-2019, 04:25 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Except it simply is true. Facing the same pitcher multiple times in the same game improves hittersí output with each additional matchup.
So does facing inferior pitching though.
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