White Sox Interactive Forums
What's The Score?

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > What's The Score?
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #481  
Old 09-30-2019, 01:21 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 18,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Spot on. The days of the high salaried "celebrity" manager are numbered.

I don't know. I get the impression the Giants are looking for someone who will evolve into another Bruce Bochy and that the Padres would like to pick up Maddon.

Celebrity managers can and usually do wear out their welcome. That's always been the case. Leo Durocher, as celebrity a manager as there ever was, appearing on The Munsters and other television shows while being chummy with Sinatra, was fired a few times before the Cubs hired him and fired him about half a century ago.

If general managers want to manage from the executive suite without the failed understanding that their analytics provide, leading them to believe they understand a game that they really do not, they will have to overcome that disadvantage.
  #482  
Old 09-30-2019, 01:46 PM
DumpJerry's Avatar
DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
Tom Feargal Hagen
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The hearts and minds of Sox fans on 10-26-05
Posts: 28,268
Default

So, gone are the days when managing the Cubs ended a managerial career?

So far, Ricky is the only one who got work post-Cubs. All the others vanished into the wood work.

Piniella quit before the season ended (125 games in) to take care of his ailing mother in 2010. His mother is still alive is my understanding.
__________________


2020....2020.....2020....2020....2020.....
  #483  
Old 09-30-2019, 01:48 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 7,191
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
So, gone are the days when managing the Cubs ended a managerial career?

So far, Ricky is the only one who got work post-Cubs. All the others vanished into the wood work.

Piniella quit before the season ended (125 games in) to take care of his ailing mother in 2010. His mother is still alive is my understanding.
Dusty Baker led both the Cincinnati Reds and the Washington Nationals to back-to-back division titles following his stint on the north side, but was fired by both teams for failing to advance past the NLDS.
__________________
"Hope...may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources...but its nature is to be extravagant, and those who go so far as to stake their all upon the venture see it in its true colors only when they are ruined."
-- Thucydides
  #484  
Old 09-30-2019, 03:45 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 12,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Now that it is official that Bozo is gone, does that mean Mister Green Jeans is the next Manager?
The only clown in this town was in the dugout 8 miles south.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and let’s fight tomorrow.
  #485  
Old 09-30-2019, 04:53 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 18,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The only clown in this town was in the dugout 8 miles south.

Now that Cookie is dead? Truth is, I have a lot more respect for the way Rick Renteria handles his team and deals the media than I ever did for Joe Maddon in a Cubs uniform. Maddon made at least as many questionable managerial moves as Renteria even if he had teams that won more games.
  #486  
Old 09-30-2019, 05:21 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Western Suburbs
Posts: 5,045
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Now that Cookie is dead? Truth is, I have a lot more respect for the way Rick Renteria handles his team and deals the media than I ever did for Joe Maddon in a Cubs uniform. Maddon made at least as many questionable managerial moves as Renteria even if he had teams that won more games.
Just with his penchant of jerking Bryant around the diamond he should be sent to explore new avenues.
__________________
“There were a few hard rules, but everybody was unique, and he understood that. George’s great strength was he didn’t overcoach. There’s no place for panic on the mound.” - Jim Palmer on George Bamberger “Arms and the man,” Sports Illustrated, April 19, 2004
  #487  
Old 09-30-2019, 10:40 PM
ChiSox Charlie ChiSox Charlie is offline
New At WSI
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Grand Haven, MI
Posts: 10
Default

No one knows for sure, but does anyone truly believe that Maddon would have done better with the Sox teams Renteria had the last three seasons? And does anyone believe that Renteria, had he stayed with the Cubs, with all that young talent, not led them to the playoffs? Yes, Maddon won the World Series, and no one can take that away from him, but it took extra innings in game seven to defeat a beat up Indians team,

I am not suggesting that Renteria is, or will be a better manager than Maddon, but he has not been given the talent Maddon has either. Remember, in Maddon's first two seasons in Tampa they won 61 and 66 games, before talent like Longoria, Price and Zobrist developed.

I am willing to reserve judgement on Renteria. He says he expects to win next year. Let's see if he does.
  #488  
Old 10-01-2019, 09:22 AM
blandman blandman is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,027
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSox Charlie View Post
No one knows for sure, but does anyone truly believe that Maddon would have done better with the Sox teams Renteria had the last three seasons? And does anyone believe that Renteria, had he stayed with the Cubs, with all that young talent, not led them to the playoffs? Yes, Maddon won the World Series, and no one can take that away from him, but it took extra innings in game seven to defeat a beat up Indians team,

I am not suggesting that Renteria is, or will be a better manager than Maddon, but he has not been given the talent Maddon has either. Remember, in Maddon's first two seasons in Tampa they won 61 and 66 games, before talent like Longoria, Price and Zobrist developed.

I am willing to reserve judgement on Renteria. He says he expects to win next year. Let's see if he does.

What Maddon would have done with these Sox teams is irrelevant. He doesn't have to take jobs like that because he's empirically better as a manager than someone that has to. And lets not forget that Renteria was fired in a position - not for any performance issue - but because a better manager in Maddon was available. Once the situation allowed for a better hire, Renteria was immediately replaced. Not because he couldn't handle the situation he was in prior. But because he wasn't good or qualified to enough to handle the next step. You don't have to give him a 90 win team to know that, you analyze his management along the way.

Renteria is a bad manager who BENEFITS from having bad teams, as it lowers expectations (and the amount of things he needs to do well, including handling the media professionally).
  #489  
Old 10-01-2019, 12:35 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 18,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
What Maddon would have done with these Sox teams is irrelevant. He doesn't have to take jobs like that because he's empirically better as a manager than someone that has to. And lets not forget that Renteria was fired in a position - not for any performance issue - but because a better manager in Maddon was available. Once the situation allowed for a better hire, Renteria was immediately replaced. Not because he couldn't handle the situation he was in prior. But because he wasn't good or qualified to enough to handle the next step. You don't have to give him a 90 win team to know that, you analyze his management along the way.

Renteria is a bad manager who BENEFITS from having bad teams, as it lowers expectations (and the amount of things he needs to do well, including handling the media professionally).
Maddon is not empirically a better manager than Renteria. It had nothing to do with the next step. It had to do with making the team as likable as popular, charismatic as possible on a national level. Renteria did not convey the image that Cubs wanted on a local and national level.

It is true that Maddon wouldn't have taken the White Sox job, for a couple of reasons. The White Sox wouldn't have ponied up for Maddon's celebrity that he achieved with a couple of talented Rays teams (although he probably hasn't gotten as much out of his Rays than Kevin Cash has out of his). Maddon, who who Rays seemed happy to see go, wanted to manage in the National League where he could creatively manage without the designated hitter.

Ned Yost won with the Royals the year before Maddon won with the Cubs. I don't know that Maddon or Renteria couldn't have won with the 2015 Royals or that Renteria or Yost couldn't have won with the 2016 Cubs. Until Yost went to a World Series, no one ever accused him of being a good manager, let alone a manager who could take a team to the next level. Of course, Ozzie Guillen took the White Sox to the next level in his second year as manager. (The question of what happened to Guillen, however, is more complicated.)

The fact that Maddon has for the last two years presided over teams that have collapsed, this year even more than last, is counter to his reputation, even if people blame falls on the executives that put the team together. If you look at Maddon with the Cubs, he was that manager who couldn't reach the next level the first year, won in his second year and never took the Cubs to that next level again, with increasingly diminishing season-ending results, despite the love for the Cubs nationally that Maddon helped perpetuate in the media. Even this year, many were writing in August that the Cubs were clearly the best team in the NL Central.

Maddon might help a team believe in themselves because he has a reputation of being an elite manager, breifly anyway, but he isn't an empirically better manager than Renteria.

If Renteria had been managing the Cubs or the last two years, I don't believe he would have done any worse than Maddon. But he certainly would have been held more responsible than Maddon has.
  #490  
Old 10-01-2019, 12:48 PM
blandman blandman is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,027
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Maddon is not empirically a better manager than Renteria. It had nothing to do with the next step. It had to do with making the team as likable as popular, charismatic as possible on a national level. Renteria did not convey the image that Cubs wanted on a local and national level.

It is true that Maddon wouldn't have taken the White Sox job, for a couple of reasons. The White Sox wouldn't have ponied up for Maddon's celebrity that he achieved with a couple of talented Rays teams (although he probably hasn't gotten as much out of his Rays than Kevin Cash has out of his). Maddon, who who Rays seemed happy to see go, wanted to manage in the National League where he could creatively manage without the designated hitter.

Ned Yost won with the Royals the year before Maddon won with the Cubs. I don't know that Maddon or Renteria couldn't have won with the 2015 Royals or that Renteria or Yost couldn't have won with the 2016 Cubs. Until Yost went to a World Series, no one ever accused him of being a good manager, let alone a manager who could take a team to the next level. Of course, Ozzie Guillen took the White Sox to the next level in his second year as manager. (The question of what happened to Guillen, however, is more complicated.)

The fact that Maddon has for the last two years presided over teams that have collapsed, this year even more than last, is counter to his reputation, even if people blame falls on the executives that put the team together. If you look at Maddon with the Cubs, he was that manager who couldn't reach the next level the first year, won in his second year and never took the Cubs to that next level again, with increasingly diminishing season-ending results, despite the love for the Cubs nationally that Maddon helped perpetuate in the media. Even this year, many were writing in August that the Cubs were clearly the best team in the NL Central.

Maddon might help a team believe in themselves because he has a reputation of being an elite manager, breifly anyway, but he isn't an empirically better manager than Renteria.

If Renteria had been managing the Cubs or the last two years, I don't believe he would have done any worse than Maddon. But he certainly would have been held more responsible than Maddon has.

I think you should look up what empirical means. It's not theory or opinion, the results that Maddon has produced make him an empirically better manager.


I doubt Maddon would have accepted a job with the 2018 Cubs if he was able to view the roster and make a decision. Nobody was winning a title with that team. It's a testament to his managing skills that they made the playoffs.

The celebrity thing is funny because I've never viewed him that way, and it's hard for me to understand where that's coming from. Nothing about him was "hollywood" in Tampa. That's more a Cubs thing than a Maddon thing.


Here's the biggest counter I could offer. Fire Renterria. Offer anything to Maddon. Who hangs up first? Maddon. Not because of celebrity. But because he's empirically a good enough manager than he doesn't have to take an opportunity like this. You know who has to take jobs like this? Bad managers. Like Renterria.
  #491  
Old 10-01-2019, 02:48 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 18,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
I think you should look up what empirical means. It's not theory or opinion, the results that Maddon has produced make him an empirically better manager.



I doubt Maddon would have accepted a job with the 2018 Cubs if he was able to view the roster and make a decision. Nobody was winning a title with that team. It's a testament to his managing skills that they made the playoffs.

The celebrity thing is funny because I've never viewed him that way, and it's hard for me to understand where that's coming from. Nothing about him was "hollywood" in Tampa. That's more a Cubs thing than a Maddon thing.


Here's the biggest counter I could offer. Fire Renterria. Offer anything to Maddon. Who hangs up first? Maddon. Not because of celebrity. But because he's empirically a good enough manager than he doesn't have to take an opportunity like this. You know who has to take jobs like this? Bad managers. Like Renterria.

I know what empirical means. I don't believe you are applying the word correctly in evaluating managerial abilities. The Rays were better team in Cash's first year than they were in Maddon's last year. Many hope the Cubs will be a better team next year than they were this year, but it won't depend on finding an empirically superior manager. For that matter, Maddon has managed two teams that have collapsed in September, and you can choose to hold him blameless.

Maddon is all about celebrity. Maybe 75 percent celebrity, 20 percent understanding of the game, and 5 percent wanting to do things putting pitchers in the outfield instead of taking them out of the game so that he can bring them back in to face the lefty farther down in the order. He probably saw Alvin Dark do that with Sam McDowell in 1970 and now he wants to show off his skills as more than a manager who fills out the lineups.

There is no empirical measure of managerial abilities. Even tendencies carry the prejudice of preference. And such measures would require scientific controls that would only be possible with parallel universes, and not the evil-twin kind.

Your position is opinion, no matter how freely you want to toss around the word "empirical".
  #492  
Old 10-01-2019, 02:49 PM
Chez's Avatar
Chez Chez is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Clarendon Hills
Posts: 7,159
Default

I think it's nearly impossible to quantify (in terms of wins and losses) the impact a particular manager has on his team. There is no managerial stat comparable to WAR, is there? I suppose Pythagorean may include an element of manager's impact, but it's multifactorial. The year the Cubs won the World Series under Maddon their Pythagorean (how many games they should have won looking primarily at run differential) was four wins higher than their actual win total. In Renteria's one year with the Cubs, their Pythagorean was two wins under their actual win total. Does that mean Renteria did a better job with the Cubs during the regular season in 2014 than Maddon did in 2016?
__________________

2019 Sox Attendance Tracker: 9-6
All time Sox Attendance Tracker:

286-247
  #493  
Old 10-01-2019, 03:15 PM
TDog TDog is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 18,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
I think it's nearly impossible to quantify (in terms of wins and losses) the impact a particular manager has on his team. There is no managerial stat comparable to WAR, is there? I suppose Pythagorean may include an element of manager's impact, but it's multifactorial. The year the Cubs won the World Series under Maddon their Pythagorean (how many games they should have won looking primarily at run differential) was four wins higher than their actual win total. In Renteria's one year with the Cubs, their Pythagorean was two wins under their actual win total. Does that mean Renteria did a better job with the Cubs during the regular season in 2014 than Maddon did in 2016?

I think the only valid use for Pythagorean records is how a teams outperform them. I think better teams with better managers outperform their Pythagorean records. But even that is a generalization. Not all one-run games are created equal. A manager may win a game by one run after squandering nearly all of an eight-run lead with bad bullpen decisions or may score the winning run on a last inning perfectly executed hit-and-run.
  #494  
Old 10-01-2019, 03:51 PM
DumpJerry's Avatar
DumpJerry DumpJerry is offline
Tom Feargal Hagen
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The hearts and minds of Sox fans on 10-26-05
Posts: 28,268
Default

We are close to 500 posts and it is now the offseason.

Go here to discuss the other team....
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:54 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.