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  #301  
Old 12-07-2019, 04:42 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Not sure what you've been watching, but Lopez's FB doesn't sink. So still not buying the spin rate angle.

As far as a third pitch, he has a decent changeup when it doesn't get too firm and he can keep it down. But that's part of it with him.

Not sure how having a very average relief prospect and a utility guy prospect remotely makes the Sox situation better.
Sure it sinks.

For a 97-98 mph pitch, it gets about the same amount of resistance to vertical movement as guys who are throwing 92-93 but with more spin.
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  #302  
Old 12-07-2019, 08:09 PM
pmck003 pmck003 is offline
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I think the Ozuna rumor might have some wheels to it considering the Sox promoted hitting coach Frank Menechino was with Ozuna for his two best years.
Seems like he may of had some injury/bad luck issues last year:

Link

I can't see concern about major decline at age 29. Even if he is the same guy from the last two years, if he is able to handle (an assumed) RF you have an slightly above average guy. His advanced stats show upside (if Menechino can help him beat the shift). All comes down to opportunity cost but contract estimates seem reasonable.
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  #303  
Old 12-07-2019, 08:37 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by pmck003 View Post
I think the Ozuna rumor might have some wheels to it considering the Sox promoted hitting coach Frank Menechino was with Ozuna for his two best years.
Seems like he may of had some injury/bad luck issues last year:

Link

I can't see concern about major decline at age 29. Even if he is the same guy from the last two years, if he is able to handle (an assumed) RF you have an slightly above average guy. His advanced stats show upside (if Menechino can help him beat the shift). All comes down to opportunity cost but contract estimates seem reasonable.
Menechino was the Marlinsí hitting coach in 2014 and 2015. Ozunaís best year was 2017.

Menechino was on the Marlins coaching staff in 2017, but Iím not sure what his duties were.
  #304  
Old 12-07-2019, 09:35 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by pmck003 View Post
I think the Ozuna rumor might have some wheels to it considering the Sox promoted hitting coach Frank Menechino was with Ozuna for his two best years.
Seems like he may of had some injury/bad luck issues last year:

Link

I can't see concern about major decline at age 29. Even if he is the same guy from the last two years, if he is able to handle (an assumed) RF you have an slightly above average guy. His advanced stats show upside (if Menechino can help him beat the shift). All comes down to opportunity cost but contract estimates seem reasonable.
Itís not really about decline. Itís more about him not being all that great in the first place.
  #305  
Old 12-07-2019, 09:52 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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He no great shakes in LF. I'd hate to see him in RF.
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  #306  
Old 12-08-2019, 12:17 AM
RCWHITESOX RCWHITESOX is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
He no great shakes in LF. I'd hate to see him in RF.
If he does end up in RF he sure is a heck of a lot better than anyone they have in RF now! Iím tired of seeing the parade of stiffs they shuttled out there last year. I hope they also acquire Pederson as well!
  #307  
Old 12-08-2019, 01:12 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Just some simple numbers-crunching:

Ozuna figures to have a WAR somewhere in the mid-to-high 2s. An upgrade to be sure, but how much of an upgrade?

Leury had a 1.3 WAR last year playing predominantly in the outfield. Engel had a 0.7 WAR playing a half-season in CF.

If those guys can give you a 1.5ish WAR playing every day, paying $15m-$20m per year for an upgrade of a little over 1 WAR is an inefficient use of resources for a team planning on spending only $120-130. Just let Engel play out there for $600K and SIGN! 2! STARTING! PITCHERS!

Just walk into the meetings next week with a 5/$135 ($35 deferred over 7 years in the form of 2 club option buyouts and 5 deferral payments) offer for Bumgarner and a 3/$55 ($15 deferred over 5 years in the form 2 club option buyouts and 3 deferral payments) offer for Keuchel.

Bumgarner: $30/$17.5/$17.5/$17.5/$17.5 then 2 vesting options at $17.5 ($5 buyouts), then $5/$5/$5/$5/$5 deferred.

Keuchel: $15/$12.5/$12.5, then 2 vesting options at $12.5 ($3 buyouts), then $3/$3/$3 deferred.

Each vesting option for both guys vests with at least 162 IP the previous season.
  #308  
Old 12-08-2019, 01:14 AM
pmck003 pmck003 is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Menechino was the Marlins’ hitting coach in 2014 and 2015. Ozuna’s best year was 2017.

Menechino was on the Marlins coaching staff in 2017, but I’m not sure what his duties were.
Ah I thought he was from looking at wikipedia:

"Menechino was hired by the Miami Marlins as their hitting coach on October 11, 2013.[4] The Marlins fired him after the 2018 season."

link

Fake news ha
  #309  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:07 AM
RCWHITESOX RCWHITESOX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Just some simple numbers-crunching:

Ozuna figures to have a WAR somewhere in the mid-to-high 2s. An upgrade to be sure, but how much of an upgrade?

Leury had a 1.3 WAR last year playing predominantly in the outfield. Engel had a 0.7 WAR playing a half-season in CF.

If those guys can give you a 1.5ish WAR playing every day, paying $15m-$20m per year for an upgrade of a little over 1 WAR is an inefficient use of resources for a team planning on spending only $120-130. Just let Engel play out there for $600K and SIGN! 2! STARTING! PITCHERS!

Just walk into the meetings next week with a 5/$135 ($35 deferred over 7 years in the form of 2 club option buyouts and 5 deferral payments) offer for Bumgarner and a 3/$55 ($15 deferred over 5 years in the form 2 club option buyouts and 3 deferral payments) offer for Keuchel.

Bumgarner: $30/$17.5/$17.5/$17.5/$17.5 then 2 vesting options at $17.5 ($5 buyouts), then $5/$5/$5/$5/$5 deferred.

Keuchel: $15/$12.5/$12.5, then 2 vesting options at $12.5 ($3 buyouts), then $3/$3/$3 deferred.

Each vesting option for both guys vests with at least 162 IP the previous season.
Whatís wrong signing all 3? What are we saving the money for? As for Engle he and his 0.7 WAR can hit the road!
  #310  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:10 AM
Heffalump Heffalump is offline
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Itís not really about decline. Itís more about him not being all that great in the first place.
Agreed. Would be another garbage signing just to sign. Pony up and sign a real RF bat.
  #311  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:20 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by RCWHITESOX View Post
Whatís wrong signing all 3? What are we saving the money for? As for Engle he and his 0.7 WAR can hit the road!
According to an article on whitesox.com, the assumed payroll target for 2020 is in the $120-130 range. I donít know if that leaves enough money for 2 starters and a RF, and getting the 2 starters is an absolute must if this team plans on being relevant in 2020. To be honest, anything left over after bringing in the starters is better off being spent on the bullpen than on any of these RF options.
  #312  
Old 12-08-2019, 08:05 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by pmck003 View Post
Ah I thought he was from looking at wikipedia:

"Menechino was hired by the Miami Marlins as their hitting coach on October 11, 2013.[4] The Marlins fired him after the 2018 season."

link

Fake news ha
Better source here.

Mike Pagliarulo was their hitting coach in 2017. Interestingly, Barry Bonds was their hitting coach in 2016, which suggests to me that Ozuna's improvement could have been artificially enhanced.
  #313  
Old 12-08-2019, 08:35 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post

If those guys can give you a 1.5ish WAR playing every day, paying $15m-$20m per year for an upgrade of a little over 1 WAR is an inefficient use of resources for a team planning on spending only $120-130. Just let Engel play out there for $600K and SIGN! 2! STARTING! PITCHERS!
I agree with this; Engel showed a lot of improvement and he and/or Leury in RF would certainly allow Robert to cover 1/3 of left field.
It's easier to sign guys decent OF; much harder to sign pitchers. If the Sox really want Ozuna, they'll get him.
  #314  
Old 12-08-2019, 09:24 AM
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Chez Chez is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Better source here.

Mike Pagliarulo was their hitting coach in 2017. Interestingly, Barry Bonds was their hitting coach in 2016, which suggests to me that Ozuna's improvement could have been artificially enhanced.
Not to get side-tracked (I feel like we've been down this path multiple times already), but this is ridiculous. If you want to play "guilt by association," how do you feel about Paul Konerko and Magglio Ordonez in 2001? Jose Canseco was their teammate. Derek Jeter in 2012 (A-Rod)?

As for Ozuna, besides Nick Castellanos, who is a better free-agent option to play RF for the 2020 Sox?
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  #315  
Old 12-08-2019, 09:46 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Not to get side-tracked (I feel like we've been down this path multiple times already), but this is ridiculous. If you want to play "guilt by association," how do you feel about Paul Konerko and Magglio Ordonez in 2001? Jose Canseco was their teammate. Derek Jeter in 2012 (A-Rod)?

As for Ozuna, besides Nick Castellanos, who is a better free-agent option to play RF for the 2020 Sox?
There isnít a better option. No one is arguing that. My point is that filling the RF position with any free agent is less helpful than spending that money on pitching, pitching, and more pitching.

At this point, may as well just punt on the RF situation for now. If this team is still gunning for a playoff spot at the trade deadline, and RF is the only gaping hole in the lineup, then make a trade at that time. However, without 2 new faces in the rotation and another solid late-inning option, this team will never even get to the point where they are contemplating midseason acquisitions for a pennant chase.
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