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  #16  
Old 08-09-2018, 11:49 AM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is online now
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Bullpen help that can results in a few more wins not only next year but when the Sox are ready to be good.

Showing improvement is crucial during a rebuild not only to a very suspect fan base regarding the ability of the front office but also to the players themselves and the media as well (which is doing a pretty good job of ignoring the Sox)

Unlike some others I don't expect them to be "players" for any of the top names because this organization usually doesn't offer the absolute top deal (save for Albert Belle) and because said free agents want to win now, not wait three years for the rebuild to maybe work. They just won't risk that time, unless the Sox offer is substantially higher.

Bullpen help is my definition of substantial given again the circumstances for this franchise going into the off season. And I'll admit, the Sox may not even be able to do that.
I agree, the bullpen is one area that can be bolstered up without blowing up the rebuild, this is the worst bullpen that I've seen on the Southside that I can remember.
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  #17  
Old 08-09-2018, 11:50 AM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Bullpen help that can results in a few more wins not only next year but when the Sox are ready to be good.

Showing improvement is crucial during a rebuild not only to a very suspect fan base regarding the ability of the front office but also to the players themselves and the media as well (which is doing a pretty good job of ignoring the Sox)

Unlike some others I don't expect them to be "players" for any of the top names because this organization usually doesn't offer the absolute top deal (save for Albert Belle) and because said free agents want to win now, not wait three years for the rebuild to maybe work. They just won't risk that time, unless the Sox offer is substantially higher.

Bullpen help is my definition of substantial given again the circumstances for this franchise going into the off season. And I'll admit, the Sox may not even be able to do that.
Bullpen is the last thing I would put any money into. This makes no sense.

Unless it's for an imPACT every day player, save your money.

Yes the Sox need to show improvement, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the Win/Loss Column. Going from 60 wins to 70 wins because you pissed away $25 million into a bullpen will not move the needle anywhere for Sox Buzz.
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  #18  
Old 08-09-2018, 11:51 AM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by little nell View Post
i agree, the bullpen is one area that can be bolstered up without blowing up the rebuild, this is the worst bullpen that i've seen on the southside that i can remember.
2007
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  #19  
Old 08-09-2018, 11:55 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
Bullpen is the last thing I would put any money into. This makes no sense.

Unless it's for an imPACT every day player, save your money.

Yes the Sox need to show improvement, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the Win/Loss Column. Going from 60 wins to 70 wins because you pissed away $25 million into a bullpen will not move the needle anywhere for Sox Buzz.
Love: But its not just in the win column as I stated. Given the state of the franchise, their position in the market and the ramifications of continuing to be awful for another two / three years on top of the past five awful ones, you are starting to risk financial implications on and off the field.

It is not as narrow a parameter as you make it out to be, there's more to it in my opinion, a LOT more.

They need to start showing improvement everywhere...on the field, in advertising, in PR..today it all flows together.
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  #20  
Old 08-09-2018, 11:56 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
2007
One of the worst but don't forget 1996 where a bullpen that set the big league record for most blown saves (since broken I think by the Orioles) helped piss away a 40-21 start and a solid Wild Card September spot.
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  #21  
Old 08-09-2018, 12:00 PM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Love: But its not just in the win column as I stated. Given the state of the franchise, their position in the market and the ramifications of continuing to be awful for another two / three years on top of the past five awful ones, you are starting to risk financial implications on and off the field.

It is not as narrow a parameter as you make it out to be, there's more to it in my opinion, a LOT more.

They need to start showing improvement everywhere...on the field, in advertising, in PR..today it all flows together.
Right, but your plan of attack is fixing a bullpen (the most volatile position annually in the sport) when they can't even get a single prospect to explode onto the scene.
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  #22  
Old 08-09-2018, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Love: But its not just in the win column as I stated. Given the state of the franchise, their position in the market and the ramifications of continuing to be awful for another two / three years on top of the past five awful ones, you are starting to risk financial implications on and off the field.

It is not as narrow a parameter as you make it out to be, there's more to it in my opinion, a LOT more.

They need to start showing improvement everywhere...on the field, in advertising, in PR..today it all flows together.

I don't know, Lip. The day Hahn make a move to please or appease the media (as you suggested) should be the last day he has his job.
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  #23  
Old 08-09-2018, 12:32 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Love: But its not just in the win column as I stated. Given the state of the franchise, their position in the market and the ramifications of continuing to be awful for another two / three years on top of the past five awful ones, you are starting to risk financial implications on and off the field.

It is not as narrow a parameter as you make it out to be, there's more to it in my opinion, a LOT more.

They need to start showing improvement everywhere...on the field, in advertising, in PR..today it all flows together.
I don't believe the White Sox can afford 3 100+ loss seasons in a row on the road to glory like the Astros did. They absolutely need to get better, considerably better starting next year. All we can do is hope the second wave of "prospects" is a darn site better than the first. At least they seem to be over the injury bug down on the farm. In addition to having a very rough start this rebuild has had some awful luck.
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  #24  
Old 08-09-2018, 12:45 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is online now
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Love: But its not just in the win column as I stated. Given the state of the franchise, their position in the market and the ramifications of continuing to be awful for another two / three years on top of the past five awful ones, you are starting to risk financial implications on and off the field.

It is not as narrow a parameter as you make it out to be, there's more to it in my opinion, a LOT more.

They need to start showing improvement everywhere...on the field, in advertising, in PR..today it all flows together.
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
I don't believe the White Sox can afford 3 100+ loss seasons in a row on the road to glory like the Astros did. They absolutely need to get better, considerably better starting next year. All we can do is hope the second wave of "prospects" is a darn site better than the first. At least they seem to be over the injury bug down on the farm. In addition to having a very rough start this rebuild has had some awful luck.
Both excellent points. This franchise doesn't have the luxury of a Wrigley Field where all kinds of people flock in even by mistake, made the Cubs rebuild a lot easier than ours or the Astros who are the only Baseball team in town. The percentage of the Sox fan base in Chicago just might be at the lowest point since they came on the scene in 1900 and gave Chicagoans another baseball team to root for.

Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 08-09-2018 at 12:54 PM.
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  #25  
Old 08-09-2018, 12:49 PM
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Tonight it was one bad inning did him in. He gave up two of his walks and the home run all in that same inning and it cost him big time.
I was at the game. Sat in row 7 behind the Yanks' on-deck circle, so I had a good view. The truth is Giolito had one bad inning and several very lucky ones. He struggled all night to find the strike zone. Game would have been worse if Judge was in the lineup and healthy.
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  #26  
Old 08-09-2018, 03:07 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Bullpen help that can results in a few more wins not only next year but when the Sox are ready to be good.

Showing improvement is crucial during a rebuild not only to a very suspect fan base regarding the ability of the front office but also to the players themselves and the media as well (which is doing a pretty good job of ignoring the Sox)

Unlike some others I don't expect them to be "players" for any of the top names because this organization usually doesn't offer the absolute top deal (save for Albert Belle) and because said free agents want to win now, not wait three years for the rebuild to maybe work. They just won't risk that time, unless the Sox offer is substantially higher.

Bullpen help is my definition of substantial given again the circumstances for this franchise going into the off season. And I'll admit, the Sox may not even be able to do that.
When you say bullpen help, if you mean some sort-term serviceable placeholders like Soria, then I'd agree with that. Otherwise, it's too early to invest heavily on bullpen help now for relievers who might be most effective before the Sox are a playoff contender again in a couple of years. I'd like to find out what we have internally next year with players like Burdi and Hamilton and maybe Stephens before we decide how much payroll to commit to for bullpen help.

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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
Bullpen is the last thing I would put any money into. This makes no sense.

Unless it's for an imPACT every day player, save your money.

Yes the Sox need to show improvement, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the Win/Loss Column. Going from 60 wins to 70 wins because you pissed away $25 million into a bullpen will not move the needle anywhere for Sox Buzz.
Agreed.
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  #27  
Old 08-09-2018, 04:08 PM
chisox59 chisox59 is offline
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I believe the future bullpen will come from players in our own system whether it's Hamilton, Burr, Burdi, etc. or a failed starter. I think our future free agent pursuits will be for a missing position player or the need for another starter if we fall short in our perceived depth.

What I'd like to see this organization do is to pursue the shortcomings of our current young players in the off season. Someone needs to work with Moncada on his plate protection and Giolito, Fulmer, Hansen, etc. on their command of the strike zone. I don't feel this is something that should wait until spring training. Give the guys a couple of months off and then get working on what they know are the weaknesses and then let it continue into the spring. Maybe they could pair Moncada with Madrigal so he can better understand what it means to protect the plate and not leave the at bat in the hands of an umpire. Sitting back and waiting to do it during spring games and into the season is not a proactive approach in my opinion.
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  #28  
Old 08-09-2018, 06:41 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is online now
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Originally Posted by chisox59 View Post
Someone needs to work with Moncada on his plate protection and Giolito, Fulmer, Hansen, etc. on their command of the strike zone. I don't feel this is something that should wait until spring training. Give the guys a couple of months off and then get working on what they know are the weaknesses and then let it continue into the spring. Maybe they could pair Moncada with Madrigal so he can better understand what it means to protect the plate and not leave the at bat in the hands of an umpire. Sitting back and waiting to do it during spring games and into the season is not a proactive approach in my opinion.
Agreed:

Both Moncada and Anderson could use their time in the off season to work with Omar Vizquel.

Same with the young pitchers. They're in need of some guidance.
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Last edited by Grzegorz; 08-09-2018 at 06:56 PM.
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  #29  
Old 08-10-2018, 09:36 AM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
Bullpen is the last thing I would put any money into. This makes no sense.

Unless it's for an imPACT every day player, save your money.

Yes the Sox need to show improvement, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the Win/Loss Column. Going from 60 wins to 70 wins because you pissed away $25 million into a bullpen will not move the needle anywhere for Sox Buzz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chisox59 View Post
I believe the future bullpen will come from players in our own system whether it's Hamilton, Burr, Burdi, etc. or a failed starter. I think our future free agent pursuits will be for a missing position player or the need for another starter if we fall short in our perceived depth.

What I'd like to see this organization do is to pursue the shortcomings of our current young players in the off season. Someone needs to work with Moncada on his plate protection and Giolito, Fulmer, Hansen, etc. on their command of the strike zone. I don't feel this is something that should wait until spring training. Give the guys a couple of months off and then get working on what they know are the weaknesses and then let it continue into the spring. Maybe they could pair Moncada with Madrigal so he can better understand what it means to protect the plate and not leave the at bat in the hands of an umpire. Sitting back and waiting to do it during spring games and into the season is not a proactive approach in my opinion.

Here's a good summary of the bullpen talent making its way through the Sox farm system.

https://www.southsidesox.com/2018/8/...hamilton-burdi


Lots of promising names mentioned. Of course they aren't guaranteed to succeed, but let's see what we got with these guys before we spend a big chunk of payroll or trade valuable assets to get veteran relievers.
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  #30  
Old 08-10-2018, 09:44 AM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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No half rebuild. Tried that already. This GM tried that already, and failed miserably.
If the rebuild isn't making progress change rebuilders.
I wouldn't want to disturb a certain party's summer slumber, but no other moves this July/August?
But is there, just speaking theoretically, a point at which Rick Hahn will be held accountable?

I don't want the Sox to trade Avi or Abreu for peanuts just so they can tell fans that they've been busy. Avi has struggled with injuries this year that surely deflated his trade value and Abreu was mired in a terrible, lengthy slump at the deadline. Unless you know of specific offers they passed up for either of these guys, I think this criticism is unwarranted.


Regarding your last question, I would say 2020 is the year that Rick Hahn and others in management SHOULD be held accountable if this team is still going nowhere and prospects are failing. Not now and not even in 2019. I emphasize "should", because under current ownership I don't expect they will be held accountable at that point (or perhaps ever) if theoretically things go off the rails.
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Last edited by GoSox2K3; 08-10-2018 at 10:32 AM.
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