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  #16  
Old 04-30-2019, 08:07 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Still, I would rather have the other catcher play 1B instead of DH. That allows him to move behind the dish without a problem if something bad happens.

If this was a team fighting for playoff life, and you didn't want to risk the very low chance of losing the DH for part of a game because he has to step in for the starting catcher, then I guess I would understand this.


But if the starting catcher gets hurt and you have to move the DH to catcher and lose the DH for, at most, nine innings, the worst thing that happens is that you might lose the game. For this team, given that we are probably going to lose 90 games, the risk of losing one particular game is not that big of a deal.
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  #17  
Old 04-30-2019, 08:15 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
If this was a team fighting for playoff life, and you didn't want to risk the very low chance of losing the DH for part of a game because he has to step in for the starting catcher, then I guess I would understand this.


But if the starting catcher gets hurt and you have to move the DH to catcher and lose the DH for, at most, nine innings, the worst thing that happens is that you might lose the game. For this team, given that we are probably going to lose 90 games, the risk of losing one particular game is not that big of a deal.
I just donít want pitchers being forced to hit or run the bases. For me, itís management against injury risk more than anything else.
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  #18  
Old 04-30-2019, 08:26 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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If this was a team fighting for playoff life, and you didn't want to risk the very low chance of losing the DH for part of a game because he has to step in for the starting catcher, then I guess I would understand this.

But if the starting catcher gets hurt and you have to move the DH to catcher and lose the DH for, at most, nine innings, the worst thing that happens is that you might lose the game. For this team, given that we are probably going to lose 90 games, the risk of losing one particular game is not that big of a deal.

Continuing with this line of thought, there are numerous legitimate criticisms of Renteria's lineups. Having a catcher play DH occasionally is low on the list of criticisms, in my opinion. Admittedly, this is a flawed roster, so he can only do so much to hide weaknesses in the lineups.


That said, because prioritizing player development is appropriate in a year when the roster is so flawed, once Eloy returns I would stick with this lineup regardless of the handedness of the pitcher:


SS Anderson - get young core hitters as many ABs as possible

3B Moncada - ditto
LF Eloy - ditto

1B/DH Abreu - makes sure Eloy doesn't only get sliders

DH/1B Alonso - gives you professional ABs with HR power even if AVG lacks

C McCann/Castillo
RF Cordell

2B Yolmer/Rondon

CF Leury/Engel (eventually Tilson)


I think the top 6 is acceptable for a major league lineup. Obviously the bottom three leave much to be desired, and we're probably going to have revolving doors of mediocrity at CF, 2B, and RF until Robert, Madrigal, and one among Adolfo/Basabe/Rutherford/Gonzalez/Walker, are ready.
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  #19  
Old 04-30-2019, 08:28 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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I totally understand not wanting pitchers to hit or run the bases. But it would happen anyway in games in NL stadia. In our current situation, at most we're risking it actually happening once.
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  #20  
Old 04-30-2019, 09:06 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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I totally understand not wanting pitchers to hit or run the bases. But it would happen anyway in games in NL stadia. In our current situation, at most we're risking it actually happening once.
But that ďonceĒ could affect three or four pitchers, lead to earlier pinch-hit appearances because of earlier pitcher exits, prevent other pinch-hit/pinch-run/defensive substitutions, and leave the bench short-handed in late/extra innings.

The probability is low, but itís not zero.

Want extra roster versatility during the season? Have your backup catcher bring a 1B glove to Arizona in February. Or get rid of the 8th reliever and carry a Jamie Burke-type 3rd catcher who can play other positions on occasion.
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  #21  
Old 04-30-2019, 09:13 AM
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But that “once” could affect three or four pitchers, lead to earlier pinch-hit appearances because of earlier pitcher exits, prevent other pinch-hit/pinch-run/defensive substitutions, and leave the bench short-handed in late/extra innings.

The probability is low, but it’s not zero.

Want extra roster versatility during the season? Have your backup catcher bring a 1B glove to Arizona in February. Or get rid of the 8th reliever and carry a Jamie Burke-type 3rd catcher who can play other positions on occasion.
A lot of teams are trending toward using the second catcher as a DH at least occasionally. The odds of what you are talking about - starting catcher gets hurt so bad in the first 6 innings of the game that he cannot continue - are pretty damned small. How many times over the last 5 year did the Sox catcher have to be replaced during the game due to injury at any time during the game?
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  #22  
Old 04-30-2019, 09:14 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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I completely understand the risks of having to remove the DH mid-game.


And I'm not in favor of Renteria using the DH spot to get either of our catchers into the game.


But it's not because I'm terribly concerned about the risk you have identified.


It's because I think, in a season where player development is more important than specific wins and losses, those DH at-bats are best used elsewhere rather than getting a veteran catcher's bat into a game.


I'd rather have not signed Alonso, but since he's here, we might as well try to maximize his value by playing him every day. I think it would be smart to trade him OR Abreu later this year, for whatever marginal value can be extracted, and then use 1B/DH at-bats for other players who are still worth evaluating for a longer-term future with the club.


Once September callups happen, I want Collins on the major league roster, and I want him in the lineup every day: catching sometimes and DHing the rest of the time. Of course, by that point, we'll have more than two catchers on the roster.
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  #23  
Old 04-30-2019, 09:27 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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A starting pitcher is even more unlikely to get hurt pinch-running than a catcher is to get hurt behind the plate. I have seen pitchers pinch-run on occasion, so itís not a pure hypothetical with no precedent.

Should we pinch-run with Reynaldo Lopez and Manny BaŮuelos today and tomorrow, since we know they wonít be needed to start for a few days?
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  #24  
Old 04-30-2019, 09:59 AM
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A starting pitcher is even more unlikely to get hurt pinch-running than a catcher is to get hurt behind the plate. I have seen pitchers pinch-run on occasion, so it’s not a pure hypothetical with no precedent.

Should we pinch-run with Reynaldo Lopez and Manny BaŮuelos today and tomorrow, since we know they won’t be needed to start for a few days?
You're actually moving the goalposts here a bit. I understand your point, but you're really starting to get deep into some statistical anomalies that would require not only the starting catcher to get hurt early in the game (1% chance?) thus requiring a starting pitcher to hit and run the bases - say the odds on them actually getting a hit are 5% in the AL - and then said starting pitcher getting hurt while running the bases - say 10% (going high here. I think it's much lower than this).

So .01 X .05 X .1 = .005% chance (5/10000 tries).

I don't think we should be managing the team based on that chance and in reality, the odds of a catcher getting hurt early in the game are much lower than 1% I'm guessing. How many times did it happen last year in all of MLB?

Edit: And to answer your question, no, I don't want our starting pitchers being used as PR, but I wouldn't be freaked out if say Carson Fulmer was called on to do it.

Edit 2: and again we are talking about having pitchers hit for one game until they can call up some catching help. This isn't something that's going to handcuff the team for weeks on end. "Go stand there with the bat on your shoulder, Carlos and let's hope the other 8 guys can pick you up offensively."

Edit 3: and finally, our starting pitchers are already going to have to hit at least ~20 times this season. I don't think adding on 1-2 more is going to severely increase the odds of them getting injured.

Last edited by voodoochile; 04-30-2019 at 10:35 AM.
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  #25  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:01 AM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Banuelos has an interesting background. He's 28, so he's not a young prospect by any means. In 2011, he was actually ranked as a top 50 prospect by MLB.com (actually #13).

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2011/

But he struggled with injuries and has kicked around in the minors since then, though he pitched a few games for the Braves in 2015. Hopefully he'll be able to hold a rotation spot down adequately for us in the short term.
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  #26  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:47 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by GoSox2K3 View Post
Banuelos has an interesting background. He's 28, so he's not a young prospect by any means. In 2011, he was actually ranked as a top 50 prospect by MLB.com (actually #13).

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2011/

But he struggled with injuries and has kicked around in the minors since then, though he pitched a few games for the Braves in 2015. Hopefully he'll be able to hold a rotation spot down adequately for us in the short term.
2 for 2 in effective starts so far this year. I think the biggest reason Santana was cut wasn't that they couldn't stand to send him out one more time, but because they wanted to see what they had in Banuelos. Hahn talked him up in the Spring, and so far so good.
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  #27  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:55 AM
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2 for 2 in effective starts so far this year. I think the biggest reason Santana was cut wasn't that they couldn't stand to send him out one more time, but because they wanted to see what they had in Banuelos. Hahn talked him up in the Spring, and so far so good.
Also they were approaching the 45 day deadline for guaranteeing the money. No point in letting him get closer to that date if they knew they didn't want him anymore.
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  #28  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:56 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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I just would hate to see a pitcher get hit by a pitch or jam a finger or sprain a wrist because he unnecessarily had to hit in an AL game. As for the risk of catchers getting hurt, look no further than the beating that Severino took last night. Honestly, I would have pulled him after that half-inning ended and sent him to the training room to try and keep the swelling down.

I guess itís just a new reality created by carrying an 8th reliever. With only 10 total position players, backup catchers are going to be asked to make more non-catching appearances than they had to make before.
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  #29  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:02 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Also they were approaching the 45 day deadline for guaranteeing the money. No point in letting him get closer to that date if they knew they didn't want him anymore.
I donít know. Would Santana still have made the money had he accepted the outright assignment? If they wanted to guarantee Santanaís departure, why not just grant him his unconditional release instead?
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  #30  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:11 AM
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Ö.of course there is a very good chance that we won't play tonight. Plenty of rain to go around.
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