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  #256  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:57 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Doing that deal for Mookie would be an absolute slam dunk in our favor, even if you do it specifically to flip Mookie at the trade deadline.
I think it would be a great deal for the Sox if the starting staff was more of a sure thing. However, it isn't and flipping him at the deadline isn't a slam dunk in what you'll get back for 2-3 months of a star player. Look at what Machado yielded at the deadline a year ago.

Last edited by ChiSoxNationPres; 12-06-2019 at 12:22 PM.
  #257  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:59 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
I think it would be a great deal for the Sox if the starting staff was more of a sure thing. However, it isn't and flipping him at the deadline isn't a slam dunk in what you'll get back for 2-3 months of a star player. Look at what Machado yielded at the deadline a year ago.
I would gladly trade Basabe, Lopez, and Dunning for that Machado package as well.
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  #258  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:20 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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I would gladly trade Basabe, Lopez, and Dunning for that Machado package as well.
Hard pass.
  #259  
Old 12-06-2019, 03:05 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Hard pass.
Diaz is a whole lot better than Basabe at this point.

Kremer is not as good as Dunning, but his elbow hasnít exploded, either.

I would trade Reynaldo Lopez for Zach Pop and Rylan Bannon straight-up, even without the rest of the package.

So yeah, sign me up for passing that package onto Boston for Mookie Bettsís epic awesomeness.
  #260  
Old 12-06-2019, 03:14 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Trading for Betts is just lazy. It would provide more evidence that the FO has no clue how to build a winner.
As for "flipping", when has this FO ever successfully flipped a player.
  #261  
Old 12-06-2019, 03:32 PM
asindc asindc is offline
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Trading for Betts is just lazy. It would provide more evidence that the FO has no clue how to build a winner.
As for "flipping", when has this FO ever successfully flipped a player.
Whether it is lazy or not is irrelevant.
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  #262  
Old 12-06-2019, 03:48 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Trading for Betts is just lazy. It would provide more evidence that the FO has no clue how to build a winner.
As for "flipping", when has this FO ever successfully flipped a player.
If the opportunity presented itself to turn that package into Mookie Betts, you do it without thinking twice. It has nothing to do with being lazy or not fielding a winner. It's strictly about substantially increasing the value of assets on-hand.
  #263  
Old 12-06-2019, 04:18 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Diaz is a whole lot better than Basabe at this point.

Kremer is not as good as Dunning, but his elbow hasnít exploded, either.

I would trade Reynaldo Lopez for Zach Pop and Rylan Bannon straight-up, even without the rest of the package.

So yeah, sign me up for passing that package onto Boston for Mookie Bettsís epic awesomeness.
I'm not even factoring in Basabe, who I think might just be a useful bench piece at best.

You pretty much just want to get more prospects with less upside who are further away from helping a team looking to contend immediately. How does this help the Sox move closer to a WS?

You're trading away 2 pitchers who are either in the majors or a year or less away with top 50 prospect pedigree with either some degree of success in the MLB of tons of success in the minors.

Lopez still for sure has untapped potential in there. He has had consistent premium velocity throughout his short career, has been injury free, some degree of success and experience in the bigs.

He has 30 starts of 6+ innings and 2 ERs or less the last two seasons.

By comparison, Zack Wheeler has 29 of those starts.

Lopez just has obvious consistency issues with results game by game. Needs to figure out how to turn those 5 inning 4 run, 6 inning 5 run, 4 inning 5 run outings into: 6 inning 3 runs, 5 inning 3 runs, 7 inning 4 runs, 5 innings 2 runs, etc.

Limiting damage plus Renteria possibly pulling him earlier in games he has given up 3 runs or more, are what needs to happen next year.

He has a lot a upside that can still be discovered in his short career so far. Only 25 and has pitched tons of great individual games. Time to put it all together.

Dunning has been nothing but consistent and productive in the minors and profiles as someone who could step in very soon to the bigs to be a useful member of the staff, or maybe more, once healthy.

The Sox are dying for good pitching, and the odds of either Dunning or Lopez being a #3 or higher are fairly decent in my mind.

I see little to no upside in any of the players the Orioles got, nor do they fit with the Sox current situation.

The time for getting non MLB ready prospects are over for the most part.
  #264  
Old 12-06-2019, 05:01 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Reynaldo Lopez can throw hard. He just can't spin it. Therefore, he doesn't miss nearly enough bats.


It's been 3 years, and that low-2100 RPM on his fastball hasn't budged. Unless he either develops superior command of the pitch, makes an adjustment to generate more spin, or abandons it in favor of a sinker or something else with some late life to it, it will be more of the same.



Yes, if given the choice, I would rather have additional prospect depth than Lopez. Hell is coming to breakfast for this farm system, and it is coming soon.
  #265  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:11 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Reynaldo Lopez can throw hard. He just can't spin it. Therefore, he doesn't miss nearly enough bats.


It's been 3 years, and that low-2100 RPM on his fastball hasn't budged. Unless he either develops superior command of the pitch, makes an adjustment to generate more spin, or abandons it in favor of a sinker or something else with some late life to it, it will be more of the same.



Yes, if given the choice, I would rather have additional prospect depth than Lopez. Hell is coming to breakfast for this farm system, and it is coming soon.
Considering he has pitched 30 excellent games in the last 2 years it would suggest that spin rate has little to do with his overall poor numbers. His spin rate has been consistent throughout his few years in the bigs and from outing to outing. He's great one game with the same spin rate, so the next game he gets bombed so blame it on that same spin rate? Doesn't add up. It's his lack of command and his offspeed pitches have to be "on" and low and away for him to be effective.

I mentioned a few weeks ago that I would be in favor of him switching to a 2 seamer to get some more movement in favor of higher velocity just to see if that might help miss more bats and barrels.

Well yeah, the farm isn't as good as it was a year or 2 ago because of players graduating to the majors. It is far less of an issue for the Sox than it is for the Cubs or Red Sox now. The Sox have tons of young players that will be controlled for 4-7 years. Trading young cost controlled MLB guys or good higher level minor league players to restock the farm system with low upside players during a WS window is literally the last thing the Sox should do.
  #266  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:50 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
Considering he has pitched 30 excellent games in the last 2 years it would suggest that spin rate has little to do with his overall poor numbers. His spin rate has been consistent throughout his few years in the bigs and from outing to outing. He's great one game with the same spin rate, so the next game he gets bombed so blame it on that same spin rate? Doesn't add up. It's his lack of command and his offspeed pitches have to be "on" and low and away for him to be effective.

I mentioned a few weeks ago that I would be in favor of him switching to a 2 seamer to get some more movement in favor of higher velocity just to see if that might help miss more bats and barrels.

Well yeah, the farm isn't as good as it was a year or 2 ago because of players graduating to the majors. It is far less of an issue for the Sox than it is for the Cubs or Red Sox now. The Sox have tons of young players that will be controlled for 4-7 years. Trading young cost controlled MLB guys or good higher level minor league players to restock the farm system with low upside players during a WS window is literally the last thing the Sox should do.

Look at the walks in those 30 excellent games. Now look at the walks in the dumpster fires. Look at the home runs allowed in those 30 excellent games. Now look at the home runs allowed in the disasters.


When people talk about Lopez's results regressing to the same level as his peripherals, spin rate absolutely is one of those peripherals being referenced. When his command is failing him, Lopez's high fastball drops into the hitting zone and gets crushed, largely due to its lack of spin. Compare that to Giolito's, which stays elevated and generates swinging strikes, largely because it has 200+ more RPM than Lopez's. Basically, Lopez has no room for error, which is bad news for a guy who makes a bunch of errors.



And we haven't even addressed the fact that Lopez still hasn't developed a 3rd pitch in his 3 seasons up here...


IMO, Lopez is a lot closer to being yanked out of the rotation and becoming a journeyman swingman than he is to becoming a quality rotation piece. Even if he does make a drastic change next year, half his team control already will be gone.


They are not going to trade Lopez now. I'm not saying they should. However, if given the choice, I would take a relief prospect with a plus fastball-plus slider combo and a utility infield prospect with a good on-base profile and some decent pop over a guy who still looks pretty far away from being a solid starting pitcher.
  #267  
Old 12-07-2019, 08:53 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
If the opportunity presented itself to turn that package into Mookie Betts, you do it without thinking twice. It has nothing to do with being lazy or not fielding a winner. It's strictly about substantially increasing the value of assets on-hand.
a)It doesn't increase the value of assets; it depletes the value of assets; b) building a winner is the goal - increasing the value of assets is a means to that goal. c)An energetic and capable front office off of 72 wins would never think of trading long term assets for a 1 year fix. It's temporary salve to some fans and to a FO that is looking for "we tried" points (another indication that they may not know how to accumulate assets when not in "tear down" mode, necessary to build a contender).
  #268  
Old 12-07-2019, 09:28 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
a)It doesn't increase the value of assets; it depletes the value of assets; b) building a winner is the goal - increasing the value of assets is a means to that goal. c)An energetic and capable front office off of 72 wins would never think of trading long term assets for a 1 year fix. It's temporary salve to some fans and to a FO that is looking for "we tried" points (another indication that they may not know how to accumulate assets when not in "tear down" mode, necessary to build a contender).
1 year of Mookie Betts is more valuable than 4 years of Reynaldo Lopez, Luis Basabe at this stage of his development, and Dane Dunning coming off elbow reconstruction.
  #269  
Old 12-07-2019, 09:58 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
1 year of Mookie Betts is more valuable than 4 years of Reynaldo Lopez, Luis Basabe at this stage of his development, and Dane Dunning coming off elbow reconstruction.
False! And I am surprised to read this take from you.

This team is not going to the World Series in 2020, even with Betts. If they acquire the pitching they need (a #1 starter, a #3 or 4 starter, two high leverage relievers) then things might be different. But so far all they have done is swapped out Vieira for another guy like Vieira.

Lopez, Basabe, and Dunning might still contribute multiple inexpensive, quality seasons. Maybe the right move is to trade them for other players with multiple years of control, but it’s not to throw them away for one year of Betts.
  #270  
Old 12-07-2019, 10:35 AM
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False! And I am surprised to read this take from you.

This team is not going to the World Series in 2020, even with Betts. If they acquire the pitching they need (a #1 starter, a #3 or 4 starter, two high leverage relievers) then things might be different. But so far all they have done is swapped out Vieira for another guy like Vieira.

Lopez, Basabe, and Dunning might still contribute multiple inexpensive, quality seasons. Maybe the right move is to trade them for other players with multiple years of control, but itís not to throw them away for one year of Betts.
It's still a risk I'd take. You'd get Betts without mortgaging the future in any way and it would be a clear sign the team is ready to compete now. He would immediately solve the RF hole for 2020 and it would put the Sox in position to at least have a good seat the table to get him to resign for a long term contract in FA 2021. As a bonus, he'd put a lot of butts in the seats, meaning the team would have even more money to play with.
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