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  #91  
Old 12-08-2019, 10:22 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Cordero pitched really well for the Sox; but he doesn't strike out many. The bullpen had a lot of career years last year, and it appears that the Sox are counting on a repeat of that.
Not sure why you’re suggesting the Sox are being complacent with the bullpen, it’s still early December and there’s plenty of time for them to add someone. There are also a number of other internal options who are coming off injuries that could contribute this year.
  #92  
Old 12-08-2019, 10:52 AM
KyWhiSoxFan KyWhiSoxFan is offline
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Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
He's not a good outfielder. This club does not need another bad defensive outfielder picnicking on the OF grass.
He won a gold glove in 2017 for his play in LF for Miami.
  #93  
Old 12-08-2019, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by KyWhiSoxFan View Post
He won a gold glove in 2017 for his play in LF for Miami.
He's no worse than an average defender according to the run differential posted on BBREF. Heck on Fangraphs he's the top rated LF in UZR from last season in qualified innings and comes in 3rd if you drop the innings total to 500.

Where is this "He sucks defensively" argument coming from? Because for the life of me I can't figure it out. Everywhere I look he appears to be no worse than an average defender and RF might be his best position. He didn't play there the last two years but the Cardinals were playing Dexter Fowler in RF and didn't need him there. Heck, the Marlins had Yelich and Ichiro for his final two seasons in Miami when he almost exclusively played LF.

People need to stop freaking out.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ate=2019-12-31
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  #94  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:13 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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He's no worse than an average defender according to the run differential posted on BBREF. Heck on Fangraphs he's the top rated LF in UZR from last season in qualified innings and comes in 3rd if you drop the innings total to 500.

Where is this "He sucks defensively" argument coming from? Because for the life of me I can't figure it out. Everywhere I look he appears to be no worse than an average defender and RF might be his best position. He didn't play there the last two years but the Cardinals were playing Dexter Fowler in RF and didn't need him there. Heck, the Marlins had Yelich and Ichiro for his final two seasons in Miami when he almost exclusively played LF.

People need to stop freaking out.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ate=2019-12-31



There's a lot going on with the way people view Ozuna. Part of it is he hasn't had the same crazy numbers he put up in Miami. Some advanced stats say he's now just above average, and some advanced scouting tools say he's elite and the numbers will catch up. It's two different schools of thought, so there's a lot of emotion in the argument, and because of it a lot of people are going to overly be as negative as possible when it comes to Ozuna.


The other side of it is views on defense. There's a lot of people that view exceptional defense as the only defense. And a guy who's slightly on either side of average will get - completely unfairly - lumped in with dead weight fielders like Eloy - because they're not winning you games solely with their defense.


I'd welcome an Ozuna signing, but I'm worried beyond worry that we're going to build like the Twins, signing 4th and 5th starters, supplementing with depressed market sluggers like Grandal and Ozuna, and then just hitting a ton to get through the regular season with no real chance for success in the playoffs. All because we don't want to give a long term, big money deal to an elite pitcher.
  #95  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:22 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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The knock on Ozuna’s defense comes from Statcast’s Outs Above Average. He was a -8 last year. Only 9 of the 92 qualifying outfielders in MLB were worse.
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  #96  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:30 PM
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The knock on Ozuna’s defense comes from Statcast’s Outs Above Average. He was a -8 last year. Only 9 of the 92 qualifying outfielders in MLB were worse.
Well there's tons of other data that suggest he is just fine. How does he stack up against just LF? Just curious. It's also only one season. What about other seasons is he equally bad?
  #97  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:37 PM
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-1 in 2018, +3 in 2017, and -2 in 2016 for Ozuna’s OAA.
  #98  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Well there's tons of other data that suggest he is just fine. How does he stack up against just LF? Just curious. It's also only one season. What about other seasons is he equally bad?
BBRef and Fangraphs also rate him negatively defensively. The guy is simply bad with the glove.
  #99  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:51 PM
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BBRef and Fangraphs also rate him negatively defensively. The guy is simply bad with the glove.
He led qualified LF for UZR last year on Fangraphs.
  #100  
Old 12-08-2019, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
He led qualified LF for UZR last year on Fangraphs.

I was indifferent about an Ozuna signing, but all the backlash is making me root for him.
  #101  
Old 12-08-2019, 04:46 PM
KyWhiSoxFan KyWhiSoxFan is offline
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I was indifferent about an Ozuna signing, but all the backlash is making me root for him.
No matter what anyone thinks of Ozuna's defense, he would be a huge improvement over anyone who played right field for the Sox last year.
  #102  
Old 12-08-2019, 04:47 PM
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No matter what anyone thinks of Ozuna's defense, he would be a huge improvement over anyone who played right field for the Sox last year.

Exactly. In a worse case scenario, he's going to put up 2-3 WAR a year. We're coming from negative WAR. In worst case scenarios, he's a drastic improvement.
  #103  
Old 12-08-2019, 05:08 PM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by KyWhiSoxFan View Post
No matter what anyone thinks of Ozuna's defense, he would be a huge improvement over anyone who played right field for the Sox last year.
But that isn't the point, no one is arguing that he wouldn't be an upgrade over what was run out to RF consistently last season.

The point is that Ozuna isn't the best option for the Sox in RF if they want to compete for a WS. He just isn't a difference maker, he's only an upgrade from whatever miserably low sub .600 ops the Sox had out there last year, which pretty much any FA could accomplish.
  #104  
Old 12-08-2019, 05:25 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
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Exactly. In a worse case scenario, he's going to put up 2-3 WAR a year. We're coming from negative WAR. In worst case scenarios, he's a drastic improvement.
2-3 WAR is not really helping anything. That’s my point.

Let’s face facts. We’re basically spending Twins/Indians/Brewers/DBacks money on this team. That makes free agency a non-starter to acquire the 4-5+ WAR players who win you championships. In order to access those players, they have to be either extremely short-term 1-2 year players on the trade market, or they have to be youngsters.

Since we’re looking to add cost-controlled talent without subtracting too much of it, that rules out the trades for 1-2 year rentals. What does that leave as the most feasible option to acquire legitimate difference makers? Acquiring positive value players by absorbing negative value players.

Instead of signing a “meh” player like Ozuna at a neutral dollar value for his production, take back a negative value player like Heyward—who, like Ozuna, is bound to provide a sizable upgrade to that position anyway, only smaller—to access a likely positive value player in Happ or a certain positive value player in Hoerner.

“Meh” player + good prospect > slightly less “meh” player + nothing.

Again, I’m not really in favor of either option. I would rather just pay the extra money for Castellanos, who can give you that 125+ wRC+ or OPS+ and provide a truly dynamic impact. Unfortunately, it is what it is.
  #105  
Old 12-08-2019, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxNationPres View Post
But that isn't the point, no one is arguing that he wouldn't be an upgrade over what was run out to RF consistently last season.

The point is that Ozuna isn't the best option for the Sox in RF if they want to compete for a WS. He just isn't a difference maker, he's only an upgrade from whatever miserably low sub .600 ops the Sox had out there last year, which pretty much any FA could accomplish.

Who is that person? 2-3 WAR in RF is top 10 across the league. Yeah, that's not Bryce Harper, Christian Yelich, Aaron Judge, or Mookie Betts. But other than those guys, Ozuna would be as good a bet as anyone else in RF to be the next on that list. And of everyone else he's the only one that's put up a 6 WAR season before (and not that long ago).


edit: Mohoney - this answer can apply to you too. I'd also be alright with Castellanos. But let's also not act like his best year wasn't 3 WAR, and he didn't even get there last year.
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