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  #16  
Old 09-09-2019, 01:24 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
They had a core of young cost and time controlled players with the upside of Moncada, Anderson, Jimenez, Robert, Madrigal, Cease, Lopez, Giolito and Kopech in 2014?

Who were those players? I can't think of anyone outside of Sale, Quintana and Abreu.

They also had a salary cap of $88M by the end of the season which by the end of 2015 had climbed to ~$100M. They are entering arbitration talks this year with $25M on the books.
In 2014 they had a core of Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton and I'd argue there were high expectations for Avi Garcia even after he tore his shoulder. Alexei Ramirez was an All-Star too.

Rodon was expected to be able to make significant contributions by 2015. Semien and Micah Johnson were expected to be decent big-leaguers (though I think there was much more debate about Johnson). Frankie Montas was getting some degree of attention at the end of the season too.

So it seemed like the Sox had a core of four young guys to build around (five if you count Avi), more pitching help in the minors with Rodon and Montas, guys like Semien, Johnson and even Conor Gillaspie seemed like they'd be at least serviceable major leaguers.

The front office then traded almost all of those guys for one year's rent worth of Jeff Smardizja and the rest for Todd Frazier while signing Melky, Adam LaRoche and Robertson.

My problem with where things stand now is that the same people who thought it would be a good idea to sign Adam LaRoche to a contract that large enough to tie their hands in 2016 and that Robin Ventura could lead that team to contention are in charge and still in charge of handing out contracts and making personnel decisions.

That's what I find most worrisome about the rebuild right now.
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  #17  
Old 09-09-2019, 01:53 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
In 2014 they had a core of Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton and I'd argue there were high expectations for Avi Garcia even after he tore his shoulder. Alexei Ramirez was an All-Star too.

Rodon was expected to be able to make significant contributions by 2015. Semien and Micah Johnson were expected to be decent big-leaguers (though I think there was much more debate about Johnson). Frankie Montas was getting some degree of attention at the end of the season too.

So it seemed like the Sox had a core of four young guys to build around (five if you count Avi), more pitching help in the minors with Rodon and Montas, guys like Semien, Johnson and even Conor Gillaspie seemed like they'd be at least serviceable major leaguers.

The front office then traded almost all of those guys for one year's rent worth of Jeff Smardizja and the rest for Todd Frazier while signing Melky, Adam LaRoche and Robertson.

My problem with where things stand now is that the same people who thought it would be a good idea to sign Adam LaRoche to a contract that large enough to tie their hands in 2016 and that Robin Ventura could lead that team to contention are in charge and still in charge of handing out contracts and making personnel decisions.

That's what I find most worrisome about the rebuild right now.
don't forget Matt Davidson-at that time he was considered a key component- the injuries/failures of Avi, Davidson, Laroche were huge contributors to that initial rebuild collapsing- along with the wrong manager.
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  #18  
Old 09-09-2019, 01:57 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
There has certainly been progress but what frightens me is that the core of players the Sox can build around now is very reminiscent of the core they had in 2014 that they couldn't build around.
How so?

According to Baseball Reference, here was the starting lineup for the 2014 Sox: Flowers, Abreu, Beckham, Ramirez, Gillaspie, De Aza, Eaton, Viciedo, Dunn https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2014.shtml. We did have much in the minors other than Anderson, Matt Davidson, and Avi

Moncada>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(x10) Gillaspie
Anderson >>>>> Alexei
Jimenez >>>>>>>> De Aza
Robert (potential) >>>>> Eaton
Madrigal (potential) >>>> Beckham
McCann > Flowers
Abreu and Vaughn (future/potential) ~= Abreu (2014)
RF < Viciedo (but perhaps at least one of Rutherford, Walker, Adolfo, etc. can surpass what Dayan did for us)
DH....Collins? Sheets? Surely someone can be better than Dunn/LaRoche

Where is this reminiscence you speak of?

Starting pitching:
2014 core: Sale, Quintana, Danks, Erik Johnson, Noesi
2019 current/future core: Giolito, Cease, Kopech, Lopez, ???
It's tough to beat having Sale as your ace, but that 2014 rotation looked terrible after Sale and Q. Our current core looks like it could potentially have 3 TOR pitchers even before we get to what Lopez, Dunning, Stiever, or a FA signing might do.

Last edited by Hitmen77; 09-09-2019 at 02:38 PM.
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  #19  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:06 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
In 2014 they had a core of Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton and I'd argue there were high expectations for Avi Garcia even after he tore his shoulder. Alexei Ramirez was an All-Star too.

Rodon was expected to be able to make significant contributions by 2015. Semien and Micah Johnson were expected to be decent big-leaguers (though I think there was much more debate about Johnson). Frankie Montas was getting some degree of attention at the end of the season too.

So it seemed like the Sox had a core of four young guys to build around (five if you count Avi), more pitching help in the minors with Rodon and Montas, guys like Semien, Johnson and even Conor Gillaspie seemed like they'd be at least serviceable major leaguers.

The front office then traded almost all of those guys for one year's rent worth of Jeff Smardizja and the rest for Todd Frazier while signing Melky, Adam LaRoche and Robertson.

My problem with where things stand now is that the same people who thought it would be a good idea to sign Adam LaRoche to a contract that large enough to tie their hands in 2016 and that Robin Ventura could lead that team to contention are in charge and still in charge of handing out contracts and making personnel decisions.

That's what I find most worrisome about the rebuild right now.
I don't think Semien, Gillaspie, or Micah Johnson were even close to the talent level of Anderson, Moncada, and Madrigal. Moncada was the #1 prospect in all of baseball. Madrigal is premier talent, too. Were any of those prospects from 2014 ever ranked as high?

Robert is one of the top rated prospects in baseball and MiLB player of the year. Eloy was one of the top prospects last year. Was Avi ever ranked nearly as high as either of those guys?

In 2014, Alexei was 32 years old and it was the first time in 3 seasons (and the final time) he had an OPS above .700.
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  #20  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:19 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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The underlying assumption that progress or performance is guaranteed is what makes this thread hilarious.

Yes, you're definitely right, no teams ever suffer declines in performance or injuries. It is guaranteed the Sox are about to kill the damn game.
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  #21  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:33 PM
I_Liked_Manuel I_Liked_Manuel is offline
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Seems like everybody is ignoring the elephant in the room regarding how the sox will be able to compete in a playoff series with the pitching currently in the organization. Unless a legit #1 and probably #3 appear on this roster, the sox are not going to be in the position to win even a divisional series imo
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  #22  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:36 PM
hoosiersoxfan hoosiersoxfan is online now
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Originally Posted by I_Liked_Manuel View Post
Seems like everybody is ignoring the elephant in the room regarding how the sox will be able to compete in a playoff series with the pitching currently in the organization. Unless a legit #1 and probably #3 appear on this roster, the sox are not going to be in the position to win even a divisional series imo
We really don't know what Kopech and Cease are going to be. Both have the stuff to be #1 starters but who knows at this time if that will ever come to fruition.
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  #23  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:38 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Originally Posted by I_Liked_Manuel View Post
Seems like everybody is ignoring the elephant in the room regarding how the sox will be able to compete in a playoff series with the pitching currently in the organization. Unless a legit #1 and probably #3 appear on this roster, the sox are not going to be in the position to win even a divisional series imo
Right. The predicament is that, once again, we are dealing with ifs and having to make sure a bunch of things pan out. That's not a great position to be unless you make additions. Substantial ones.
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  #24  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:45 PM
I_Liked_Manuel I_Liked_Manuel is offline
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Originally Posted by hoosiersoxfan View Post
We really don't know what Kopech and Cease are going to be. Both have the stuff to be #1 starters but who knows at this time if that will ever come to fruition.
Not trying to be Debbie downer here, but I will be happy if kopech can contribute to a major league staff. His effectiveness came from 98 mph screwballs, and I think those days are over. I don't see anything in Cease that tells me he's going to be more than a #3 on a playoff staff in the event he maximizes potential, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong
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  #25  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Liked_Manuel View Post
Seems like everybody is ignoring the elephant in the room regarding how the sox will be able to compete in a playoff series with the pitching currently in the organization. Unless a legit #1 and probably #3 appear on this roster, the sox are not going to be in the position to win even a divisional series imo
Have you been watching Giolito's starts? He's pitched like a legit #1. Other than Verlander and Cole, he's out pitched every other starter in the damn league.
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  #26  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:52 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
In 2014 they had a core of Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton and I'd argue there were high expectations for Avi Garcia even after he tore his shoulder. Alexei Ramirez was an All-Star too.

Rodon was expected to be able to make significant contributions by 2015. Semien and Micah Johnson were expected to be decent big-leaguers (though I think there was much more debate about Johnson). Frankie Montas was getting some degree of attention at the end of the season too.

So it seemed like the Sox had a core of four young guys to build around (five if you count Avi), more pitching help in the minors with Rodon and Montas, guys like Semien, Johnson and even Conor Gillaspie seemed like they'd be at least serviceable major leaguers.

The front office then traded almost all of those guys for one year's rent worth of Jeff Smardizja and the rest for Todd Frazier while signing Melky, Adam LaRoche and Robertson.

My problem with where things stand now is that the same people who thought it would be a good idea to sign Adam LaRoche to a contract that large enough to tie their hands in 2016 and that Robin Ventura could lead that team to contention are in charge and still in charge of handing out contracts and making personnel decisions.

That's what I find most worrisome about the rebuild right now.
But that's not a comment on the progress of the rebuild, it's applicable to any rebuild as long as it's in process. If the Sox had signed Machado and Harper, that would still be a concern. Until/unless the team is complete and winning rings, there will always be things that need to get done and therefore based on your comment, you'll still have the same "problem with where things stand now."

Judging the rebuild based on its actual progress it's going exceptionally well. It's not done, so of course there are uncertainties (insert quote about the only certainty in life being death or some such thing). But the rebuild is realistically going as well as one could expect or better, which is really all you can hope for, IMO and is all you can really evaluate.
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  #27  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:54 PM
Flight #24 Flight #24 is offline
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Right. The predicament is that, once again, we are dealing with ifs and having to make sure a bunch of things pan out. That's not a great position to be unless you make additions. Substantial ones.
Isn't this the case for any team except possibly the favorites? Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers - pick your team and there are ifs and a bunch of things that need to pan out. For a team at this stage of the rebuild, things are going really well. But because of the stage, there are more uncertainties than teams that are not at this stage (but that's the case independent performance and wholly dependent on being mid-rebuild).
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  #28  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:57 PM
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Isn't this the case for any team except possibly the favorites? Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers - pick your team and there are ifs and a bunch of things that need to pan out. For a team at this stage of the rebuild, things are going really well. But because of the stage, there are more uncertainties than teams that are not at this stage (but that's the case independent performance and wholly dependent on being mid-rebuild).
Well said.
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  #29  
Old 09-09-2019, 03:01 PM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
The underlying assumption that progress or performance is guaranteed is what makes this thread hilarious.

Yes, you're definitely right, no teams ever suffer declines in performance or injuries. It is guaranteed the Sox are about to kill the damn game.
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Originally Posted by guillensdisciple View Post
Right. The predicament is that, once again, we are dealing with ifs and having to make sure a bunch of things pan out. That's not a great position to be unless you make additions. Substantial ones.
What's so "hilarious" about being hopeful about all the talent making its way through the system? I must be missing something because I don't see anyone saying anything about this being "guaranteed" as you suggest.

I didn't realize fans weren't allowed to dream about a future lineup that features TA, Moncada, Jimenez, Robert, Madrigal, and Vaughn just because nothing is guaranteed in life and we don't have a crystal ball to ensure future performance.

May as well shut down all discussion on this board about the future of this ball club since it's not 100% certain to be successful.
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  #30  
Old 09-09-2019, 03:02 PM
guillensdisciple guillensdisciple is offline
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Isn't this the case for any team except possibly the favorites? Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers - pick your team and there are ifs and a bunch of things that need to pan out. For a team at this stage of the rebuild, things are going really well. But because of the stage, there are more uncertainties than teams that are not at this stage (but that's the case independent performance and wholly dependent on being mid-rebuild).
Not really.

Your ideal place is the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, etc.

But just because we're doing a rebuild, it doesn't mean that we are on a proper path. The Sox are not doing the thing that all of these successful rebuilds do, have a top payroll to finish it.

The Cubs and Astros both did that. If we do not start competing on a financial level, our only hope will be going on a Royals one or two year run while the players hit their peaks. It took the Royals two decades of failed rebuilding to pull that off.

Otherwise, we could just be the Pirates. A perrenial fring playoff contender without susbtantial results.
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