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  #61  
Old 10-01-2019, 08:42 AM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
We did not have 7 “plus bats.” 3B, LF, SS, 1B, and C were the “plus bats” we had last year.
Yes and I added Robert and Madrigal to get to 7. I meant for the upcoming season, not 2019.
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  #62  
Old 10-01-2019, 08:57 AM
JohnTucker0814 JohnTucker0814 is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Yes and I added Robert and Madrigal to get to 7. I meant for the upcoming season, not 2019.
And you're right for including them because there is NO WAY the Sox add a 2B or CF through Free Agency to block either of those two guys. So yes, we have 7 hitters already locked into place, you could argue 8 with Collins as your primary DH when he's not C. Unless, you of course can get JD, then Collins moves to a bench role or JD plays RF a few days a week to let Collins DH.
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  #63  
Old 10-01-2019, 09:34 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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In 2015 and 2016, the Sox were still below league average in payroll despite those additions. Yet, in 2011 their payroll was 7th highest and well above league average. So, 2015 isn't the last word on how much they might spend.

Over the last few years, the Sox farm system has been ranked near the top among MLB teams. I don't remember their farm system EVER being ranked nearly as high in that 2013-2016 window. The way I see it, the amount of payroll flexibility they have now plus the amount of cost-controlled blue-chip talent they have now is basically unprecedented post-2005. It's not like 2015 at all IMO.

Margalus is right to temper optimism about this FO since they don't have a great track record of acquiring veteran talent and haven't earned the benefit of our doubt. But, it does seem over the top to me to have such a negative outlook on where this team is going at this point in time. We'll find out soon enough - maybe in as soon as a couple of months when the hot stove gets into gear.

Last edited by Hitmen77; 10-01-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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  #64  
Old 10-01-2019, 09:45 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
The .500-ish team flirting with Wild Card contention is acceptable, if this is viewed as a 2-year process instead of a 1-year process. It’s perfectly reasonable to do the free agency shopping over 2 offseasons instead of 1, as long as the TOR starter is this year’s headliner. Then go all-out for Betts next year, hopefully with a .500-ish season and a bunch of budding young talent as an extra selling point.

I like Mookie better than Machado or Harper anyway. He’s an easy guy to root for, like a lot of the other guys on our team.
I know there's a very slim chance of this happening, but oh boy, that would be great if they signed him next offseason. I can only dream of putting him in a lineup along with the bats we already have.

It's just a pipe dream, but the thought of signing him to along with Eloy, Yoan, and all the rest....
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  #65  
Old 10-01-2019, 09:52 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Let me try to summarize succinctly:

1. While on the surface we would appear to be in the same place as after the 2014 season, things are somewhat different;

2. The current cost-controlled core (Giolito, Kopech, Cease, Moncada, Anderson, Eloy) is younger and deeper than was the cost-controlled core as of 2014 (Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Eaton, Abreu);

3. The current batch of top Sox prospects (Robert, Vaughn, Madrigal) is ranked higher than the post-2014/preseason 2015 batch (Semien, etc.);

4. I think the biggest question for Hahn/KW is this: “Given how so many previous veteran acquisitions - Keppinger, Bonifacio, LaRoche, Samardzija, Navarro, Shields, Castillo, Alonso, Jay - completely underperformed both their contracts as well as your and our expectations, what lessons did you learn regarding, and what kinds of changes have you made to, organizational major league scouting and analytics departments, to reduce the chance that future major league acquisitions turn out to be busts?”
I'd agree with all this with the caveat that I think back in 2014 most people would include Avi and maybe even Flowers in the list of the Sox young core. In hindsight, the 2014 core had four young players who turned out to be very good (five if you want to include Rodon and six if you want to include Semien), but at the time I think people on here were thinking there six positions on the roster that could be counted on for production for a while.

The key is can the front office augment the roster with talent from outside the system. They have not shown the ability to do that thus far.

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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Can’t assume anything with rookies. It’s such a massive jump. Look no further than Giolito and Moncada.
Even a guy like Eloy took awhile to adjust. Going into September he had an OBP under .300 and had several months with an OPS under .700. This isn't to say he's a bum or won't pan out, but to point out you can't just assume that Robert and Madrigal will come to Chicago and start producing. There could be a very painful learning curve in the big leagues, especially for Robert.
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  #66  
Old 10-01-2019, 10:19 AM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I'd agree with all this with the caveat that I think back in 2014 most people would include Avi and maybe even Flowers in the list of the Sox young core. In hindsight, the 2014 core had four young players who turned out to be very good (five if you want to include Rodon and six if you want to include Semien), but at the time I think people on here were thinking there six positions on the roster that could be counted on for production for a while.
This is fanciful.

Avi got 190 plate appearances in 2014, after 168 in 2013. He couldn't hit and he couldn't field. Moises Sierra got 135 PA and played at least as well.

Flowers was already 28. He had just completed his sixth season with the Sox and he had been terrible for every one of them.

Nobody considered these dog**** players "the Sox young core".
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  #67  
Old 10-01-2019, 10:20 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Let me try to summarize succinctly:

1. While on the surface we would appear to be in the same place as after the 2014 season, things are somewhat different;

2. The current cost-controlled core (Giolito, Kopech, Cease, Moncada, Anderson, Eloy) is younger and deeper than was the cost-controlled core as of 2014 (Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Eaton, Abreu);

3. The current batch of top Sox prospects (Robert, Vaughn, Madrigal) is ranked higher than the post-2014/preseason 2015 batch (Semien, etc.);

4. I think the biggest question for Hahn/KW is this: “Given how so many previous veteran acquisitions - Keppinger, Bonifacio, LaRoche, Samardzija, Navarro, Shields, Castillo, Alonso, Jay - completely underperformed both their contracts as well as your and our expectations, what lessons did you learn regarding, and what kinds of changes have you made to, organizational major league scouting and analytics departments, to reduce the chance that future major league acquisitions turn out to be busts?

Excellent summary. I completely agree with the bolded. We won't know the answer until this offseason (and perhaps next offseason) plays out.
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  #68  
Old 10-01-2019, 10:28 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Let me try to summarize succinctly:
2. The current cost-controlled core (Giolito, Kopech, Cease, Moncada, Anderson, Eloy) is younger and deeper than was the cost-controlled core as of 2014 (Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Eaton, Abreu);
A big part of the current core being younger is that, even though the 2014 group was "cost-controlled", the 2020 group is going to be making peanuts in comparison to those guys. There's a lot more room to spend big in free agency instead of trying to make do with the second tier guys.
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  #69  
Old 10-01-2019, 10:28 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I'd agree with all this with the caveat that I think back in 2014 most people would include Avi and maybe even Flowers in the list of the Sox young core. In hindsight, the 2014 core had four young players who turned out to be very good (five if you want to include Rodon and six if you want to include Semien), but at the time I think people on here were thinking there six positions on the roster that could be counted on for production for a while.

The key is can the front office augment the roster with talent from outside the system. They have not shown the ability to do that thus far.
How does Avi back then compare to one of our RF prospects (Rutherford, Walker, etc) today? Likewise, how does Flowers back then compare to Collins's upside today?

Serious question. I honestly don't know how they compare, but that's who comes to mind in our system today when you look back at Avi and Flowers in 2014. Obviously we have the benefit of hindsight for the 2014 guys, but I was wondering if they were viewed as having a similar upside back then to our RF and C prospects now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
Even a guy like Eloy took awhile to adjust. Going into September he had an OBP under .300 and had several months with an OPS under .700. This isn't to say he's a bum or won't pan out, but to point out you can't just assume that Robert and Madrigal will come to Chicago and start producing. There could be a very painful learning curve in the big leagues, especially for Robert.
This is true. But, the point is that 2B and CF are not holes that the Sox have to fill even if Robert and/or Madrigal struggle to adjust to the majors in 2020.
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  #70  
Old 10-01-2019, 10:32 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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The Betts talk is bumming me out. I can't believe there are people that still think the White Sox will set the market in years and dollars in a free agent bidding war. That isn't happening. It's not a pipe dream, because it isn't happening and cannot happen.

We were 2 years and $50 million short on our last attempt to sign a player of this ilk. And he was the easier sign. Mookie Betts is going to get $400 million. We aren't going to do that. Temper your expectations. When free agent lists are revealed, scroll the to the bottom. Those are the guys we can sign. Make sure you don't scroll up more than a couple names.
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  #71  
Old 10-01-2019, 10:33 AM
blurry blurry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
Semien is gonna finish in the top 5 in AL MVP votes btw
He was never going to develop into that caliber of player here.
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  #72  
Old 10-01-2019, 10:47 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
The Betts talk is bumming me out. I can't believe there are people that still think the White Sox will set the market in years and dollars in a free agent bidding war. That isn't happening. It's not a pipe dream, because it isn't happening and cannot happen.

We were 2 years and $50 million short on our last attempt to sign a player of this ilk. And he was the easier sign. Mookie Betts is going to get $400 million. We aren't going to do that. Temper your expectations. When free agent lists are revealed, scroll the to the bottom. Those are the guys we can sign. Make sure you don't scroll up more than a couple names.

Nobody said this.
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  #73  
Old 10-01-2019, 10:51 AM
blurry blurry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
The Betts talk is bumming me out. I can't believe there are people that still think the White Sox will set the market in years and dollars in a free agent bidding war. That isn't happening. It's not a pipe dream, because it isn't happening and cannot happen.

We were 2 years and $50 million short on our last attempt to sign a player of this ilk. And he was the easier sign. Mookie Betts is going to get $400 million. We aren't going to do that. Temper your expectations. When free agent lists are revealed, scroll the to the bottom. Those are the guys we can sign. Make sure you don't scroll up more than a couple names.
I don't think Betts will get Trout money, but he'll get mid-$300M for sure. And he'll deserve it. While I agree with you the front office will very likely not pony up for his services, one can dream.
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  #74  
Old 10-01-2019, 11:04 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
I guess I'm one of the 8 or 9 who still isn't sold that this team is ready to contend.
Add me to the list. I think flirting with .500 next season is a decently likely scenario. Of course, the offseason could change all that, but I really think there is another year of growth ahead of us.
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  #75  
Old 10-01-2019, 12:01 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Add me to the list. I think flirting with .500 next season is a decently likely scenario. Of course, the offseason could change all that, but I really think there is another year of growth ahead of us.
I think most people feel that way. I expect them to be slightly over .500 based on off season acquisitions and the development of Cease. I'm also hopeful (what's new?) that Lopez will become more consistent with an off-season to work on his form. Kopech is going to be a work in progress, IMO.

I don't see many people posting they expect next year to be a serious year of contention. Now if the team makes some good moves (FA TOR starter, RF and a couple pieces for the bullpen) and things go well for Robert Madrigal and the pitchers I mentioned above anything is possible.
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