White Sox Interactive Forums
Talking Baseball

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Talking Baseball
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 04-07-2018, 04:12 PM
asindc asindc is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 8,683
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I call it gamesmanship myself.
Itís cheating. Plain and simple. The conditions are supposed to be the same for each team.
__________________
"I have the ultimate respect for White Sox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Red Sox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country." Jim Caple, ESPN (January 12, 2011)


"We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the (bleeding) obvious is the first duty of intelligent men." ó George Orwell
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-07-2018, 06:54 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 33,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asindc View Post
Itís cheating. Plain and simple. The conditions are supposed to be the same for each team.
Tell that to guys like Gaylord Perry, Whitey Ford, Don Drysdale et al.

And tell that to the White Sox who froze baseballs, slanted the baselines in (so the bunts would stay fair), kept the grass high, watered the area in front of home plate so that it was a swamp and had a light in the scoreboard which told hitters what pitch was coming.

ALL teams screw with things and most players as well.

Part of the game. Good teams overcome and don't make excuses. The Sox simply let the Twins get in their heads from Hawk on down.

If the Twins actually were able to orchestrate that I give them all the credit in the world for thinking outside the box and doing what it takes to try to get an edge.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-07-2018, 08:08 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 19,942
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Tell that to guys like Gaylord Perry, Whitey Ford, Don Drysdale et al.

And tell that to the White Sox who froze baseballs, slanted the baselines in (so the bunts would stay fair), kept the grass high, watered the area in front of home plate so that it was a swamp and had a light in the scoreboard which told hitters what pitch was coming.

ALL teams screw with things and most players as well.

Part of the game. Good teams overcome and don't make excuses. The Sox simply let the Twins get in their heads from Hawk on down.

If the Twins actually were able to orchestrate that I give them all the credit in the world for thinking outside the box and doing what it takes to try to get an edge.
Freezing the baseballs or cutting the grass a certain way means that both teams have to play under those conditions.

Changing the direction of the fan depending on who is batting is cheating.

Would it be OK for teams to dim or brighten the lights depending on who is batting?

What about changing the color of the batters eye depending on who is batting?
__________________
The universe is the practical joke of the General at the expense of the Particular, quoth Frater Perdurabo, and laughed. The disciples nearest him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow. Others laughed, seeing the Universal Joke. Others wept. Others laughed. Others wept because they couldn't see the Joke, and others laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke. But though FRATER laughed openly, he wept secretly; and really he neither laughed nor wept. Nor did he mean what he said.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-07-2018, 08:24 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 33,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Freezing the baseballs or cutting the grass a certain way means that both teams have to play under those conditions.

Changing the direction of the fan depending on who is batting is cheating.

Would it be OK for teams to dim or brighten the lights depending on who is batting?

What about changing the color of the batters eye depending on who is batting?
You didn't mention the light in the scoreboard did you? And regarding the other things I mentioned at first the opposing team probably didn't realize those things were going on, it may have taken them a few games to catch on so it's not like there was a level playing field was it, the first time around.

Interesting concept about the batter's background. Never thought of that. That's something so outrageous though and so clearly, blatantly open for all to see that no team would even try it because it is so obvious.

Gamesmanship has to be more subtle, not so obvious.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-07-2018, 09:09 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Western Suburbs
Posts: 4,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Other than a Metrodome employee who admitted it, yeah, I guess it hasn't been "proven."
I totally agree with you: one person saying something unsubstantiated does not prove a thing.
__________________
ďThere were a few hard rules, but everybody was unique, and he understood that. Georgeís great strength was he didnít overcoach. Thereís no place for panic on the mound.Ē - Jim Palmer on George Bamberger ďArms and the man,Ē Sports Illustrated, April 19, 2004
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-08-2018, 02:18 PM
Zakath Zakath is offline
Co-Winner WSI 2016 & 2018 NFL Pick'em Contests
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In the water barrel off the now-finished Borman Expressway
Posts: 9,046
Default

I've never understood why more hitters don't bunt down the other line against the shift (would kind of make the other team not think of putting it on the next time you're up). Employing it when you're up by 7 is bush league to begin with, but then to whine when someone bunts against it?

Orioles were following the #1 unwritten rule of baseball: Hit 'em where they ain't.
__________________
I want my $2.

Obligatory 2018 attendance record: 0-1 (2-1 loss in 13 to the Perpetual Losers on 6/28)

If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-08-2018, 03:30 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 33,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakath View Post
I've never understood why more hitters don't bunt down the other line against the shift (would kind of make the other team not think of putting it on the next time you're up). Employing it when you're up by 7 is bush league to begin with, but then to whine when someone bunts against it?

Orioles were following the #1 unwritten rule of baseball: Hit 'em where they ain't.
Agree.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-08-2018, 10:51 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 9,737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakath
I've never understood why more hitters don't bunt down the other line against the shift (would kind of make the other team not think of putting it on the next time you're up).
I’m glad you brought this up, because I think it represents the single most important disconnect between the pro-bunt and anti-bunt crowds.

Simply put, the success rate on bunts is nowhere near high enough to justify the strategy. I think the pro-bunt crowd significantly underestimates the difficulty of the task.

This article is a little old, but the point is still valid.

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-...about-bunting/
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and letís fight tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-08-2018, 11:31 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 33,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Iím glad you brought this up, because I think it represents the single most important disconnect between the pro-bunt and anti-bunt crowds.

Simply put, the success rate on bunts is nowhere near high enough to justify the strategy. I think the pro-bunt crowd significantly underestimates the difficulty of the task.
It's also valid that if you get the bunt down with nobody around to field it, you are going to be on first with an infield single. And if you don't get it down, you have another chance if it goes foul before with two strikes having to abandon the idea.

Well worth it to me.

And if guys can't get bunts down today that says a lot about them and their ability to execute fundamental baseball.

It's bunting for God's sake, hell Little League players do it all the time against pitchers who generally throw hard relatively speaking for their age group.

It's not brain surgery here is it?
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-09-2018, 04:10 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 9,737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1
It's also valid that if you get the bunt down with nobody around to field it, you are going to be on first with an infield single. And if you don't get it down, you have another chance if it goes foul before with two strikes having to abandon the idea.

Well worth it to me.

And if guys can't get bunts down today that says a lot about them and their ability to execute fundamental baseball.

It's bunting for God's sake, hell Little League players do it all the time against pitchers who generally throw hard relatively speaking for their age group.

It's not brain surgery here is it?
50% of all bunts donít even land in fair territory, let alone accomplish their intended purpose.

Now letís factor in pop-up bunts that are turned into outs, bunts that die in front of the catcher and are turned into outs, and bunts that go straight back to the pitcher and are turned into outs.

Still think itís worthwhile to eliminate the possibility of an extra-base hit just to add a few percenage points to the chance of reaching first base in a bases-empty situation? I sure as hell donít.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 04-09-2018, 05:36 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 33,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
50% of all bunts donít even land in fair territory, let alone accomplish their intended purpose.

Now letís factor in pop-up bunts that are turned into outs, bunts that die in front of the catcher and are turned into outs, and bunts that go straight back to the pitcher and are turned into outs.

Still think itís worthwhile to eliminate the possibility of an extra-base hit just to add a few percenage points to the chance of reaching first base in a bases-empty situation? I sure as hell donít.
I do.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 04-09-2018, 06:37 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Western Suburbs
Posts: 4,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I do.
Same here. Learn the fundamentals.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 04-09-2018, 07:05 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 33,302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Same here. Learn the fundamentals.
Exactly. If you can't even bunt, you don't belong in the major ****ing leagues.

At least try it the first time until you get a strike then you can always go back to swinging away (and striking out...)
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 04-09-2018, 10:05 PM
asindc asindc is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 8,683
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
It's also valid that if you get the bunt down with nobody around to field it, you are going to be on first with an infield single. And if you don't get it down, you have another chance if it goes foul before with two strikes having to abandon the idea.

Well worth it to me.

And if guys can't get bunts down today that says a lot about them and their ability to execute fundamental baseball.

It's bunting for God's sake, hell Little League players do it all the time against pitchers who generally throw hard relatively speaking for their age group.

It's not brain surgery here is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Same here. Learn the fundamentals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Exactly. If you can't even bunt, you don't belong in the major ****ing leagues.

At least try it the first time until you get a strike then you can always go back to swinging away (and striking out...)
Count me in as well. I blame owners for this, since players clearly don’t learn this aspect of the game because they don’t think it hurts them at the negotiating table.

As far as %s go, I would think that the success rate of hitting an XBH is much lower than getting a bunt single against the shift. It strikes me as odd that a slugger is given credit for taking a 3-2 just out of the zone (even if the ump blows the call and rings him up), but can be criticized for bunting into an empty side of the infield. OBP is OBP. If playing for a walk is good, how can trying for a bunt single be bad?
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 04-09-2018, 11:19 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 9,737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asindc View Post
As far as %s go, I would think that the success rate of hitting an XBH is much lower than getting a bunt single against the shift. It strikes me as odd that a slugger is given credit for taking a 3-2 just out of the zone (even if the ump blows the call and rings him up), but can be criticized for bunting into an empty side of the infield. OBP is OBP. If playing for a walk is good, how can trying for a bunt single be bad?
Itís not about the XBH odds being longer than the odds for a bunt single. Itís about the odds for the bunt single not being all that much better than the odds of reaching first base through a normal at-bat, plus eliminating the odds for an XBH altogether. Plus (and I freely admit that this is anecdotal on my part), the hitters whom I usually see get shifted against are guys who have a higher likelihood of getting an XBH and a lower likelihood of laying down a successful bunt.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:47 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.