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  #16  
Old 07-20-2018, 12:16 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Players are not more "fragile" today. This is a ridiculous "get off my lawn" trope that needs correction.


Plenty of pitchers in earlier eras completely blew out their arms, elbows, and/or shoulders, and almost all of them never pitched again. Were they fragile? No. Sandy Koufax blowing out his arm did not make him fragile.


The pitchers that stand out in our memories for their longevity and pitching lots of complete games stand out specifically because they were exceptional. They stand out against the countless no-names, the flashes in the pan, and the guys who blew out their arms.



Today, we understand that throwing overhand - particularly 95+ MPH fastballs, and pitches that require snapping the wrist to generate various kinds of spin - often will cause injuries. Therefore, it's in the best interests of those players, the teams, and the fans who cheer for them, that pitchers' arms are kept as healthy as possible!


I bet there are lots of Dodgers fans who wish that modern techniques and occasional rest could have extended Koufax's career.
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  #17  
Old 07-20-2018, 12:17 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FielderJones View Post
I blame early specialization for fragility problem. 50 years ago high school athletes were three-sport athletes. There were no muscle overtraining or undertraining issues, because different sports used different muscles. Now when kids start travel baseball at age 8, to the exclusion of other sports, they are being set up for injuries we never used to see.

I do agree with this point, though.
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  #18  
Old 07-20-2018, 12:39 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is online now
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Originally Posted by Chez View Post
I don't get it. When I go to a concert, I never want it to end early or after a set number of songs (though I have seen others leave before the show is over). No one is being forced to stay for the entire game. If people don't want to stick around to see the end or extra innings, they are free to leave and listen to the rest of the game on the radio on the car ride home. Why are extra innings a problem?
Well said.
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  #19  
Old 07-20-2018, 01:17 PM
jdm2662 jdm2662 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FielderJones View Post
Today's players are much more fragile than the players of 50 years ago. Can you imagine a current manager letting a pitcher go 11 innings into a perfect game? Me either.


I blame early specialization for fragility problem. 50 years ago high school athletes were three-sport athletes. There were no muscle overtraining or undertraining issues, because different sports used different muscles. Now when kids start travel baseball at age 8, to the exclusion of other sports, they are being set up for injuries we never used to see.
Traveling sports have just gotten insane. My son, at age 6, isn't athletically gifted nor is THAT into sports. Fine with me. I just want him to listen when he plays (Which is an issue, especially since his own father is his coach). I want nothing to do with travelling. Then again, I might be holding him back, though...

On another note, I work with a lady that has a son born the same month as mine. He was pitching in the 8-10 year old leagues at age 5 and playing traveling baseball and pitching at 6. My son is just finishing up his first year of t-ball...
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  #20  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:19 PM
MeteorsSox4367 MeteorsSox4367 is online now
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Want to improve the pace of baseball? Stop the process of throwing out the ball after seemingly every pitch.

Ball comes near the dirt? Change it.

Batter hits flyball to center? Switch baseballs.

Stop it. Please.

Last Friday night, I was at the Sox game and the combo of Shields working slowly with every ball being switched was making me crazy.

As for the idea of having the runner on second to start the inning, my answers are No, Never and Not a Bleeping Chance. As someone else posted, if you don't want to stay until the end of the game, the parking lot is over there. Thanks for stopping by.
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  #21  
Old 07-20-2018, 04:59 PM
chisox59 chisox59 is offline
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Baseball is not on a clock. You know that in advance. If you decide to attend a game and have another commitment that could conflict with an extended game then by all means leave early. You make your priorities the game itself doesn't. If baseball wants faster games then every effort should be made to reduce the offensive output. 1-0 games finish a lot quicker than 23-22 slugfests and they hold your attention more.

Little league games are on a clock. My grandson gets 1 hour and 45 minutes to play a 6 inning game. A new inning cannot start if time has expired so most games are played in less than 6 innings. If an extra inning is required they start with a runner on 2nd and 1 out. If no one scores in that inning then they advance to beginning with a runner on 3rd and 2 out and they'll play like this until the game is decided. They also have a slaughter rule. If the home team is ahead by at least 10 runs after the top of the 4th inning or the visitors are that far ahead after 4 full innings the game is over.


Maybe that will be Manfred's next move!
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  #22  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:44 PM
SaltyPretzel SaltyPretzel is offline
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Originally Posted by chisox59 View Post
They also have a slaughter rule. If the home team is ahead by at least 10 runs after the top of the 4th inning or the visitors are that far ahead after 4 full innings the game is over.


Maybe that will be Manfred's next move!
Cubs could have used that rule today.
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  #23  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:07 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
If the people paying to enjoy your entertainment service have changing needs and demands, you had better cater to them rather than try to figure out how to change those needs and demands.

Not sure how baseball would solve the issues you raise in the second paragraph or if those issues can or should be fixed.

The tastes of the viewing audience are changing you had better accommodate them, but that's why I suggested a compromise solution above where the first few extra innings are played standard and then starting at some point (TBD) the runner is placed on second to (in theory) facilitate a faster ending to the game.
Batter take how much time getting in and out of the batter's box?

How many pitchers pitch per game? How many warm-ups for each pitcher?

How many times is a ball swapped in and out of play? (thnx MeteorsSox4367)

There are changes that can be made before reaching for the preposterous.
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Last edited by Grzegorz; 07-20-2018 at 07:17 PM.
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  #24  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:26 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FielderJones View Post
Today's players are much more fragile than the players of 50 years ago. Can you imagine a current manager letting a pitcher go 11 innings into a perfect game? Me either.


I blame early specialization for fragility problem. 50 years ago high school athletes were three-sport athletes. There were no muscle overtraining or undertraining issues, because different sports used different muscles. Now when kids start travel baseball at age 8, to the exclusion of other sports, they are being set up for injuries we never used to see.

Well said. Over training and specialization at an early age are killers mentally and physically.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Today, we understand that throwing overhand - particularly 95+ MPH fastballs, and pitches that require snapping the wrist to generate various kinds of spin - often will cause injuries. Therefore, it's in the best interests of those players, the teams, and the fans who cheer for them, that pitchers' arms are kept as healthy as possible!

Today? Please you make it sound as if mechanics was not understood fifty years ago.


It's the approach that is the problem not an epiphany in physics or anatomy and physiology.
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  #25  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:33 PM
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voodoochile voodoochile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Batter take how much time getting in and out of the batter's box?

How many pitchers pitch per game? How many warm-ups for each pitcher?

How many times is a ball swapped in and out of play? (thnx MeteorsSox4367)

There are changes that can be made before reaching for the preposterous.
So your solution is to limit pitching changes, force batters to hit before they are ready and stop swapping baseballs as often?

The first two are going to drastically reshape the game also.

This final one seems to be about an extra 2-seconds per ball so not sure how much time you'd actually save maybe 5 minutes over a full game and 7 minutes over a 13 inning game which is hardly a dramatic time savings.
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  #26  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:43 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
So your solution is to limit pitching changes, force batters to hit before they are ready and stop swapping baseballs as often?

The first two are going to drastically reshape the game also.

This final one seems to be about an extra 2-seconds per ball so not sure how much time you'd actually save maybe 5 minutes over a full game and 7 minutes over a 13 inning game which is hardly a dramatic time savings.
No, enforce the batter's box rule. As for the number pitching changes that is due to the arrival come with the philosophical that one must protect (limit innings) our high priced assets.

As for swapping balls in and out: it all adds up.

Start with the simple changes like enforcing rules on the books and then move on to the theater of the absurd.


The urge to central plan must be a strong one.
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  #27  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:52 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Today? Please you make it sound as if mechanics was not understood fifty years ago.

It's the approach that is the problem not an epiphany in physics or anatomy and physiology.
Pitchers from 50 years ago in most cases didn’t throw as hard as today’s pitchers do, and they had the benefit of throwing from a mound that was five inches higher.
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  #28  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:31 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Baseball is not on a clock. That's the beauty of the game.

But when baseball was invented, it was not possible to play night games. Now almost every game is a night game. And kids' diminished access to those games is a big reason why baseball is losing its audience.

What I like about placing a runner on second is that it does not radically change the game. It simply increases the odds that one or both teams will score in the inning, as leadoff baserunners do. The strategies to score one run (or play for more) are well known. The strategies to keep the run from scoring are well known. Teams just have to execute them. The game is still not on a clock, and it could still go 36 innings.

I hate the wild card playoff system, I hated the "this time it counts" ASG rule, I don't like the DH, I don't like the immediate intentional walk. I don't watch the home run derby before the ASG and I would detest any attempt to use it to break ties. (I'm sure that suggestion was tongue in cheek.) But I think this rule works. To me, it improves the game without cheapening it.

You could play a couple extra innings with no special adjustment (voodoo's suggestion); that would be fine with me. You could do that and then play a couple innings with a runner on first and it would be fine with me.

Don't forget, baseball rules have changed countless times. Look at how the walk rule has changed over the years. The game survived.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/rulechng.shtml.
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  #29  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:48 PM
Grzegorz Grzegorz is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Baseball is not on a clock. That's the beauty of the game.

But when baseball was invented, it was not possible to play night games. Now almost every game is a night game. And kids' diminished access to those games is a big reason why baseball is losing its audience.
Kids diminished access or interest? I'd say it's interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
What I like about placing a runner on second is that it does not radically change the game. It simply increases the odds that one or both teams will score in the inning, as leadoff baserunners do. The strategies to score one run (or play for more) are well known. The strategies to keep the run from scoring are well known. Teams just have to execute them. The game is still not on a clock, and it could still go 36 innings.
If you place a runner at second without having to bat you eliminate the at bat thus altering the time of the game.

These guys get paid good money to execute. I pay to see them execute. The last thing I want to see is an additional true outcome introduced to an already watered down product.

Last edited by Grzegorz; 07-20-2018 at 09:59 PM.
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  #30  
Old 07-20-2018, 10:32 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grzegorz View Post
Kids diminished access or interest? I'd say it's interest.
For kids whose parents didn't push them toward any particular sport, diminished access results in diminished interest.

Look, you're welcome to your opinion. I agree with you that there other ways to speed up the game and that those rules on the books should be enforced. But speeding up the game is not the only reason I like this rule.
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