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  #1  
Old 11-07-2019, 01:04 PM
Wsoxmike59 Wsoxmike59 is offline
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Default Tommy John to the HOF?

A good article on mlb.com today making the case for and against former ChiSox hurler Tommy John in the Hall of Fame. For the record my vote for TJ would be a yea.

https://www.mlb.com/news/tommy-john-...l-of-fame-case


PS: Here’s my short list on players that I felt were overlooked for enshrinement in Cooperstown. Feel free to add to the list.

1) Al Oliver
2) Tommy John
3) Gil Hodges
4) Bill Buckner
5) Jim Kaat
6) Vada Pinson
8) Minnie Minoso
9) Billy Pierce
10) Tony Oliva
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Last edited by Wsoxmike59; 11-20-2019 at 02:10 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2019, 03:10 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wsoxmike59 View Post
A good article on mlb.com today making the case for and against former ChiSox hurler Tommy John in the Hall of Fame. For the record my vote for TJ would be a yea.

https://www.mlb.com/news/tommy-john-...l-of-fame-case


PS: Here’s my short list on players that I felt were overlooked for enshrinement in Cooperstown. Feel free to add to the list.

1) Al Oliver
2) Tommy John
3) Gil Hodges
4) Bill Buckner
5) Jim Kaat
6) Vada Pinson
8) Minnie Minoso
9) Billy Pierce
10) Tony Oliva
I don't think John should make it; having the surgery named after him is fame enough.

Of your list, I like Minoso and Pierce, as a Sox fan. It doesn't bother me that any of the others didn't make it.

I think the HoF is too crowded as it is.
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  #3  
Old 11-07-2019, 03:42 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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Im not into the longevity guys. Just because you are blessed with the capabilities to play at older age isnt a reason to be put in the hall. Its like the people that live to be 100 or people that can walk 36 holes of golf everyday at age 75, they are blessed to have those capabilities.
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  #4  
Old 11-07-2019, 03:57 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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I believe there is room in the Hall of Fame for players whose stats would not justify HoF inclusion alone, but who were significant to MLB history in some other way.

I think Tommy John falls into that category. If not him, then at least his doctor should be inducted.
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  #5  
Old 11-07-2019, 04:11 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is online now
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Originally Posted by HomeFish View Post
I believe there is room in the Hall of Fame for players whose stats would not justify HoF inclusion alone, but who were significant to MLB history in some other way.

I think Tommy John falls into that category. If not him, then at least his doctor should be inducted.
I do think the doctor (Dr. Frank Jobe) is deserving.
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2019, 04:29 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2019, 05:52 PM
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Chez Chez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I don't think John should make it; having the surgery named after him is fame enough.
Hmmm. I guess Lou Gehrig's membership in the HOF should be revoked. Having a disease named after him seems "fame enough."
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2019, 07:33 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chez View Post
Hmmm. I guess Lou Gehrig's membership in the HOF should be revoked. Having a disease named after him seems "fame enough."
Well played!

To clarify my point, it was the surgeon who invented the TJ procedure who changed the game. I think there should be room in the HoF for him. But doctors also invented steroid and HGH injections, which changed the game even more significantly, and I don’t want those guys inducted. (Or their patients.)

I’d like pioneers of statistical analysis like Bill James to be inducted, but I don’t like all the changes that resulted from statistical analysis, like the rises in strikeout and HR rates. So stat guys might be too controversial.

I’ve previously posted that I am not in favor of Marvin Miller going in because I don’t like the legacy of free agency.

In summary, I’m having a hard time figuring out what the criteria should be for non-players. It’s complicated. Maybe it’s easier just to reconsider John.

Last edited by A. Cavatica; 11-07-2019 at 07:56 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2019, 08:46 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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John's longevity actually is relevant, not just because of the pitcher he was before his career-ending injury, but his accomplishments after his career-ending injury. John wasn't simply blessed with longevity. Not unlike Harold Baines, who worked harder simply to prepare for a game than most star players did all day, John worked hard to get 26 major league seasons out of his arm.

It's interesting that the Baseball Reference top 10 similar pitchers for Tommy John has nine Hall of Famers and Jim Kaat. Hall of Famer Bert Blyleven's top 10 similar pitchers has eight Hall of Famers, with only Kaat and John lacking the Hall-of-Fame star next to their names. I think John and Kaat deserve more respect.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
John's longevity actually is relevant, not just because of the pitcher he was before his career-ending injury, but his accomplishments after his career-ending injury. John wasn't simply blessed with longevity. Not unlike Harold Baines, who worked harder simply to prepare for a game than most star players did all day, John worked hard to get 26 major league seasons out of his arm.

It's interesting that the Baseball Reference top 10 similar pitchers for Tommy John has nine Hall of Famers and Jim Kaat. Hall of Famer Bert Blyleven's top 10 similar pitchers has eight Hall of Famers, with only Kaat and John lacking the Hall-of-Fame star next to their names. I think John and Kaat deserve more respect.
Completely agree. And for what it's worth, Kaat won 16(!) Gold Gloves.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:37 PM
Railsplitter Railsplitter is offline
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I never though Blyleven should have been elected to the HoF. 20+ years and not getting 300 wins isn't Hall of Fame material, and I don't regard Kaat and John as deserving either. Nobody talks about a pitcher who averages 12 wins a season as a future Hall of Famer, yet Kaat and John are mentioned,

As for Tony Oliva, I can't understand how a career .300 with three batting titles to his credit isn't in the Hall.
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Old 11-08-2019, 01:59 AM
TomC727 TomC727 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I do think the doctor (Dr. Frank Jobe) is deserving.
Dr Jobe is in the hall of fame.
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Old 11-08-2019, 03:12 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Railsplitter View Post
I never though Blyleven should have been elected to the HoF. 20+ years and not getting 300 wins isn't Hall of Fame material, and I don't regard Kaat and John as deserving either. Nobody talks about a pitcher who averages 12 wins a season as a future Hall of Famer, yet Kaat and John are mentioned,

As for Tony Oliva, I can't understand how a career .300 with three batting titles to his credit isn't in the Hall.
Without Tony Oliva's injuries, you probably wouldn't have the designated hitter today. And he was a disappointment as a designated hitter. Oliva's lack of longevity is why he is overlooked.

I think John is more deserving than Blyleven, but I believe there is more to the Hall of Fame than numbers.
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Old 11-09-2019, 11:13 AM
Wsoxmike59 Wsoxmike59 is offline
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Some great responses in this thread. I think both John and Kaat are more than deserving for entry in the HOF. My criteria is at least a decade of dominance or excellence. For Pitchers I like to look at their best 162 game stretch of their career, and if the W-L totals equal what usually qualifies a 1st place or Pennant Winning team, I think that puts their name in the discussion.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...johnto01.shtml

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...kaatji01.shtml

Looking at both Pitchers most productive portions of their career Tommy John’s from 1965-1980, and Jim Kaat’s from 1962-1976 both Pitchers compiled impressive W-L records. Through good health, medical science and good old fashioned hard work and training they were able to extend their careers for an extraordinarily long time and edge their numbers even closer to Cooperstown doorstep.

Jim Kaat Pitching Stats for Years 1962 to 1976
Year Tm
1962-1976 MIN,CHW,PHI
Average
per 162 games
Year Tm W L W- Pct ..ERA
1962-1976 MIN,CHW,PHI [W] 237 [L] 177 .572 3.23


Tommy John Pitching Stats for Years 1965 to 1980
Year Tm

1965-1980 CHW,LAD,NYY
Average
per 162 games
Year Tm
▲ ... W L W-L%. ERA
1965-1980 CHW,LAD,NYY [W] 212 [L] 140 .602 3.00

Last edited by Wsoxmike59; 11-09-2019 at 01:48 PM. Reason: Mispelling
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  #15  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:28 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wsoxmike59 View Post
Some great responses in this thread. I think both John and Kaat are more than deserving for entry in the HOF. My criteria is at least a decade of dominance or excellence.
That's a reasonable position and explanation. I think, however, that it is too lenient.

Consider the JAWS metric, which tries to balance career WAR and 7-year peak WAR. The average Hall of Famer scores 61.5, and Blyleven clears it by a mile. Even Curt Schilling, who I don't think belongs, clears that bar. But John, Kaat, and many other very good pitchers fall well short -- and even fall below Rick Reuschel, who in my mind is a clear "no".

Unfortunately for my position, there are Jack Morris and Catfish Hunter. If everyone as good as those guys also makes it in, the size of the HoF will triple! Do you want to see Javier Vazquez in the Hall?

Blyleven:
Starting Pitcher (17th):
94.4 career WAR / 50.3 7yr-peak WAR / 72.3 JAWS

Schilling:
Starting Pitcher (27th):
79.5 career WAR / 48.6 7yr-peak WAR / 64.1 JAWS

Average HOF P:
73.2 career WAR / 49.9 7yr-peak WAR / 61.5 JAWS

Reuschel:
Starting Pitcher (49th):
69.5 career WAR / 43.7 7yr-peak WAR / 56.6 JAWS

Sabathia:
Starting Pitcher (69th):
63.0 career WAR / 39.3 7yr-peak WAR / 51.2 JAWS

John:
Starting Pitcher (85th):
61.5 career WAR / 34.6 7yr-peak WAR / 48.0 JAWS

Buehrle:
Starting Pitcher (89th):
59.2 career WAR / 35.8 7yr-peak WAR / 47.5 JAWS

Pettitte:
Starting Pitcher (91st):
60.2 career WAR / 34.1 7yr-peak WAR / 47.1 JAWS

Pierce:
Starting Pitcher (101st):
53.4 career WAR / 37.8 7yr-peak WAR / 45.6 JAWS

Koosman:
Starting Pitcher (104th):
53.6 career WAR / 36.4 7yr-peak WAR / 45.0 JAWS

Kaat:
Starting Pitcher (109th):
50.4 career WAR / 38.1 7yr-peak WAR / 44.3 JAWS

Vazquez:
Starting Pitcher (142nd):
45.7 career WAR / 36.0 7yr-peak WAR / 40.9 JAWS

Colon:
Starting Pitcher (143rd):
46.1 career WAR / 35.6 7yr-peak WAR / 40.8 JAWS

Morris:
Starting Pitcher (168th):
43.4 career WAR / 32.5 7yr-peak WAR / 38.0 JAWS

Hunter:
Starting Pitcher (169th):
40.9 career WAR / 34.9 7yr-peak WAR / 37.9 JAWS
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