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  #451  
Old 12-10-2019, 07:58 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by blurry View Post
...so just admit defeat now and act like a small market team? Okay, have fun with perpetual mediocrity.
Apparently, that is Reinsdorf’s plan..so yes. I’m recalibrating my fandom under the assumption that I root for a small-market team now.

I expect prolonged stretches of piss-poor baseball, followed by brief stretches of better baseball that may or may not peak with a truly competitive team. I expect any future championship-caliber teams to look closer to the Royals than they do to the Astros or Nationals.

That is why I am intrigued by the idea of absorbing bad money and getting back good prospects. Prospect attrition rates are too high as it is. Blandman is 100% correct when he says that counting on all your big-time prospects to carry you to a title is folly. My solution to that problem is a different one than most, but I am assuming small-market spending patterns going forward. I propose augmenting your big-time prospects with...other team’s big-time prospects.

As long as the bad-money vets have a floor somewhere reasonably close to 2 WAR and don’t cause any trouble clubhouse-wise, the negative values on their contracts can be recouped by pre-arb and early-arb bargains.

Find teams who are desperate for dough, and see how desperate they really are. Add some of that international money to these trades as well, instead of converting it to small-potatoes cash for option buyouts.
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  #452  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:25 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Of course Price isn’t going to be worth that salary. The idea behind trading for him is to get someone else you need, and not have to surrender top prospects.
Or we don't get someone else of value back, and have Boston pay half his salary. Price for $32M over the next 3 years is a huge overpay, but at $16M that's probably fine. The question is then becomes whether Benintendi is worth $16M per year for the next 3 years (on top of his arb salary).

Of course we have no idea if these are actually the offers on the table, but for those that are saying they fear the Sox will choose money over the better second player in such a deal, I'm just pointing out that it isn't that black and white.
  #453  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:31 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
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Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Apparently, that is Reinsdorf’s plan..so yes. I’m recalibrating my fandom under the assumption that I root for a small-market team now.

I expect prolonged stretches of piss-poor baseball, followed by brief stretches of better baseball that may or may not peak with a truly competitive team. I expect any future championship-caliber teams to look closer to the Royals than they do to the Astros or Nationals.

That is why I am intrigued by the idea of absorbing bad money and getting back good prospects. Prospect attrition rates are too high as it is. Blandman is 100% correct when he says that counting on all your big-time prospects to carry you to a title is folly. My solution to that problem is a different one than most, but I am assuming small-market spending patterns going forward. I propose augmenting your big-time prospects with...other team’s big-time prospects.

As long as the bad-money vets have a floor somewhere reasonably close to 2 WAR and don’t cause any trouble clubhouse-wise, the negative values on their contracts can be recouped by pre-arb and early-arb bargains.

Find teams who are desperate for dough, and see how desperate they really are. Add some of that international money to these trades as well, instead of converting it to small-potatoes cash for option buyouts.
I agree with the idea of taking on bad contracts that other teams don't want. But how is that a feature of a small-market team? Why would it be any more "big-market" of them to spend the same money in FA?

The Sox have a lot of payroll flexibility. They want to use it, but it seems wasteful to spend $300M on one guy in Cole, and other options are dwindling. The trade-for-bad-money avenue is one way they can use that payroll flexibility to improve the team, without blowing it all on Cole or settling for lesser guys through FA, and without giving up valuable prospects.
  #454  
Old 12-10-2019, 09:30 AM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
Kopech will probably start in Charlotte, and take some time to be ready.

Both Cease and Lopez were undependable.

Heck, Giolito may have some trouble replicating last year's performance.

The first starter is necessary to take Kopech's starts until he comes up, and take pressure off Lopez and Cease. The second one is necessary to keep Covey in Charlotte.
That's the problem. You aren't signing the names that are being thrown out there just to "hold a spot" until Kopech is ready. If Nova, Tehran, etc are signed for the #5, they are getting their 180 innings. The Sox aren't dumping those $$$ to later send them home in May.

Hypothetically:

1) Giollito
2) Free Agent/ Trade
3) Lopez
4) Cease
5) Whoever until Kopech is back.
  #455  
Old 12-10-2019, 10:10 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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People need to stop with the David Price nonsense like the Red Sox are going to give him away and attach anything of value.

We went through this same thing last year with Zach Grienke. Yes he's expensive. But he's still a good pitcher. And he has surplus value (as was shown when he was traded for GOOD prospects).

The Red Sox would love to shed David Price's salary. But they're not going to do it for nothing. And they're certainly not going to do it while attaching cost controlled pieces.
  #456  
Old 12-10-2019, 10:43 AM
KRS1 KRS1 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
People need to stop with the David Price nonsense like the Red Sox are going to give him away and attach anything of value.

We went through this same thing last year with Zach Grienke. Yes he's expensive. But he's still a good pitcher. And he has surplus value (as was shown when he was traded for GOOD prospects).

The Red Sox would love to shed David Price's salary. But they're not going to do it for nothing. And they're certainly not going to do it while attaching cost controlled pieces.
Grienke was still good and not coming off a career low IP, highest ERA and WHIP since he was a rookie, significant loss of spin and velocity or any of the other peripherals that sank for Price last year.
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  #457  
Old 12-10-2019, 10:51 AM
blandman blandman is offline
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Grienke was still good and not coming off a career low IP, highest ERA and WHIP since he was a rookie, significant loss of spin and velocity or any of the other peripherals that sank for Price last year.
He had a 3.62 FIP last year and an ERA+ of 113. His k/9 was a career high.

I'm not saying he's an ace, I'm saying he's a rotation piece. Is he worth his salary? Definitely not. But teams don't dump salaries of useful players for nothing. Not anymore. Because there's a line to pick them up.

The question in acquiring a player like Price isn't whether he'll command prospects, or if you'll be able to attach a player. It's how much is a team going to make the Red Sox eat. They're still getting their prospect, and they're not attaching an asset.
  #458  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:02 AM
ChiSoxNationPres ChiSoxNationPres is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
He had a 3.62 FIP last year and an ERA+ of 113. His k/9 was a career high.

I'm not saying he's an ace, I'm saying he's a rotation piece. Is he worth his salary? Definitely not. But teams don't dump salaries of useful players for nothing. Not anymore. Because there's a line to pick them up.

The question in acquiring a player like Price isn't whether he'll command prospects, or if you'll be able to attach a player. It's how much is a team going to make the Red Sox eat. They're still getting their prospect, and they're not attaching an asset.
Except the Red Sox have to move one of: Price, Sale, Mookie, JDM. At least according to them. Price is the most logical guy to go based on a number of reasons.

This wouldn't be team lining up to pick up that contract and offering prospects, it would be the Red Sox coming to them. There is a need to shed money, and a lot of it. Changes the dynamics of the discussions and ultimately the transaction.
  #459  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:03 AM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
People need to stop with the David Price nonsense like the Red Sox are going to give him away and attach anything of value.

We went through this same thing last year with Zach Grienke. Yes he's expensive. But he's still a good pitcher. And he has surplus value (as was shown when he was traded for GOOD prospects).

The Red Sox would love to shed David Price's salary. But they're not going to do it for nothing. And they're certainly not going to do it while attaching cost controlled pieces.

Dbacks and Red Sox are/were in two entire different payroll circumstances.

Price and JD Martinez are stressed assets at this point for the Red Sox.

They have to cut payroll.
  #460  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:06 AM
KRS1 KRS1 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
He had a 3.62 FIP last year and an ERA+ of 113. His k/9 was a career high.

I'm not saying he's an ace, I'm saying he's a rotation piece. Is he worth his salary? Definitely not. But teams don't dump salaries of useful players for nothing. Not anymore. Because there's a line to pick them up.

The question in acquiring a player like Price isn't whether he'll command prospects, or if you'll be able to attach a player. It's how much is a team going to make the Red Sox eat. They're still getting their prospect, and they're not attaching an asset.
And those fancy stats resulted in a guy who looked bad and worth half his salary.

Regardless, we've never seen this many teams in a cap crunch looking to offload assets. Teams are going for it against the cap and want to offload assets and I think we'll see a different trade market for those desperate teams this year. Having said that, I already agreed that I think people are dreaming when they think we're going to be given the moon for a song. Which is why im terrified a KW move will strike with JBJ and $ for JR's vault instead of actual value.
  #461  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:18 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
I agree with the idea of taking on bad contracts that other teams don't want. But how is that a feature of a small-market team? Why would it be any more "big-market" of them to spend the same money in FA?

The Sox have a lot of payroll flexibility. They want to use it, but it seems wasteful to spend $300M on one guy in Cole, and other options are dwindling. The trade-for-bad-money avenue is one way they can use that payroll flexibility to improve the team, without blowing it all on Cole or settling for lesser guys through FA, and without giving up valuable prospects.
With Reinsdorf, it is more about the guaranteed years than it is about the AAV. That is what makes free agency an exercise in futility for the White Sox.

Look at the Machado mess. The AAV on the 8-year guaranteed portion of our offer (bonuses and “maybe money” excluded) was a touch higher than the AAV on San Diego’s 10-year offer. Instead of just extending that AAV to something like 10/$315, Reinsdorf instead chose to **** a brick about “financial flexibility” in 20-****ing-27.
  #462  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:23 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is online now
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
People need to stop with the David Price nonsense like the Red Sox are going to give him away and attach anything of value.

We went through this same thing last year with Zach Grienke. Yes he's expensive. But he's still a good pitcher. And he has surplus value (as was shown when he was traded for GOOD prospects).

The Red Sox would love to shed David Price's salary. But they're not going to do it for nothing. And they're certainly not going to do it while attaching cost controlled pieces.
Look at how much salary the DBacks ate to get those prospects. We’re also talking about a 3rd year at $32 million on Price that wasn’t on Greinke’s deal.
  #463  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:41 AM
blurry blurry is offline
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https://twitter.com/ken_rosenthal/st...25171446030336

If Rendon isn't interested in taking deferred money, then the White Sox should definitely go after him hard. See if he'll play 2B, offer him a sweet front loaded deal, then start shopping Madrigal around as a centerpiece of a trade to acquire a starting pitcher.
  #464  
Old 12-10-2019, 12:11 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by blurry View Post
https://twitter.com/ken_rosenthal/st...25171446030336

If Rendon isn't interested in taking deferred money, then the White Sox should definitely go after him hard. See if he'll play 2B, offer him a sweet front loaded deal, then start shopping Madrigal around as a centerpiece of a trade to acquire a starting pitcher.
No. See if he’ll play RF.
  #465  
Old 12-10-2019, 12:14 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
That's the problem. You aren't signing the names that are being thrown out there just to "hold a spot" until Kopech is ready. If Nova, Tehran, etc are signed for the #5, they are getting their 180 innings. The Sox aren't dumping those $$$ to later send them home in May.

Hypothetically:

1) Giollito
2) Free Agent/ Trade
3) Lopez
4) Cease
5) Whoever until Kopech is back.
The #5 absolutely moves to the bullpen if there are five other better starters. And he will know that before he signs.
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