White Sox Interactive Forums
What's The Score?

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > What's The Score?
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #136  
Old 01-17-2020, 06:08 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 13,195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdivaldi View Post
The thing is, to get to $180 million from where the White Sox were in 2019 would have been difficult to do without signing or trading for a whole bunch of bad contracts. While it's nice to imagine spending "funny money", the reality of the situation is that there is not unlimited money to spend. Even the big money teams loathe paying the luxury tax. A few years ago you could cheat in the draft or in the international free agent market and spend a ton, but even that has been stopped due to penalties.

The conservative approach is not much fun to watch, but a lot of teams have built winners that way. The Indians have not finished below .500 since 2012 and have won over 90 games five times. They haven't had a payroll anywhere near $180 million in that time frame.
And I don’t see how taking on extra money in 2020 does anything to compromise 2021 and beyond.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and let’s fight tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 01-17-2020, 06:16 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is online now
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 59,169
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Sure. I would take on about $50 of overpaid 2020 players.
Assuming the teams will actually dump them for peanuts AND they don't have long term commitments that would hinder payroll during the crunch that is coming.
__________________

Riding shotgun on the Sox bandwagon since before there was an Internet...
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 01-17-2020, 06:58 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 13,195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Assuming the teams will actually dump them for peanuts AND they don't have long term commitments that would hinder payroll during the crunch that is coming.
...And there are quite a few of them...
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 01-17-2020, 07:20 PM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is online now
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 59,169
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
...And there are quite a few of them...
Supposedly...
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 01-17-2020, 11:54 PM
BRDSR BRDSR is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 2,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
If this $180+ million that everybody just takes for granted is indeed going to be part of this team’s reality, there’s no time like the present to get acclimated to paying it.
This is...the most short-sighted perspective on front office baseball I’ve ever read? Yup, I think so.

Come on. There are very obvious reasons to spend $120M in 2020 with a plan to spend $180M in 2022-2023 which make tons of sense. Many of them have been articulated in this thread. None of them can be discounted. And you are of course free to assume whatever you want, but there is no relevant evidence to suggest that the White Sox will not spend in the top 3rd of MLB when they are able reasonably expect to be capable of winning championships. 2020 is only the beginning of that window. It can reasonably be expected to last at least four full seasons, through 2023z

Bigger picture, a successful 2020s decade is not hard to see. No one’s saying it’s inevitable, or a given, but it is imaginable among those White Sox fans with even skeptical perspectives. Get on board! It’s kind of enjoyable, I promise!
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 01-18-2020, 12:20 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 13,195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRDSR View Post
This is...the most short-sighted perspective on front office baseball I’ve ever read? Yup, I think so.

Come on. There are very obvious reasons to spend $120M in 2020 with a plan to spend $180M in 2022-2023 which make tons of sense. Many of them have been articulated in this thread. None of them can be discounted. And you are of course free to assume whatever you want, but there is no relevant evidence to suggest that the White Sox will not spend in the top 3rd of MLB when they are able reasonably expect to be capable of winning championships. 2020 is only the beginning of that window. It can reasonably be expected to last at least four full seasons, through 2023z

Bigger picture, a successful 2020s decade is not hard to see. No one’s saying it’s inevitable, or a given, but it is imaginable among those White Sox fans with even skeptical perspectives. Get on board! It’s kind of enjoyable, I promise!
Go ahead and wishcast. Meanwhile, I see a team with holes, both on the major league roster and on the farm. Spending money in an attempt to fill those holes would be super awesome.
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 01-18-2020, 12:42 AM
voodoochile's Avatar
voodoochile voodoochile is online now
Soda Jerk/U.P.W./Lester Pooh Bear
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 59,169
Blog Entries: 9
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Go ahead and wishcast. Meanwhile, I see a team with holes, both on the major league roster and on the farm. Spending money in an attempt to fill those holes would be super awesome.
You're correct, it's not complete, but this again... this isn't the target year and it's by design to let young players develop and get their feet underneath them at the major league level. Bringing in veteran talent to push that young talent to the back will not help the team in coming years.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 01-18-2020, 01:11 AM
BRDSR BRDSR is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 2,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Go ahead and wishcast. Meanwhile, I see a team with holes, both on the major league roster and on the farm. Spending money in an attempt to fill those holes would be super awesome.
Since you’ve used the term so often, and on multiple occasions when commenting on my posts, I had to look up “wishcast”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.urb...sting&amp=true

Wishcasting:
A tactic in "journalism" used to promote a story as true simply because the writer wants it to be true.

That’s not what I’m doing. That’s not what anyone on this board is doing, except maybe you. There are legitimate reasons to be positive about the White Sox right now. There are some reasons to be negative. But there are zero reasons to claim “Sox front office sucks”, without more. Or even with more. Which, when we boil it down, is more or less what you’re doing.

I think you promote the White Sox front office as awful simply because you want it to be true. I’m not sure why you want it to be true, but it seems an awful lot like “wishcasting,” according to Urban Dictionary, which seems to be as authoritative a resource on the subject as is available.

So, please, if you’re going to continue with this rhetoric, just call it rhetoric. Or schtick. It is good schtick, I’ll give you that.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 01-18-2020, 01:29 AM
ChiTownTrojan ChiTownTrojan is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 1,414
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Go ahead and wishcast. Meanwhile, I see a team with holes, both on the major league roster and on the farm. Spending money in an attempt to fill those holes would be super awesome.
You also seem to be under the illusion that if there is any money left in the teams bank accounts at the end of the offseason, the owners are withdrawing it and sticking it under their mattresses or something. It doesn't work that way. That cash stays as an asset for the team and can be spent at any point, like next year when all the young kids have a year of experience under there belts and there are some actual difference-makers available.

If Hahn came out and said that the $30M you'd like them to spend on overpaid vets right now was instead going to be added to the 2021 payroll, would that make you feel better?
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 01-18-2020, 03:42 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 13,195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
You're correct, it's not complete, but this again... this isn't the target year and it's by design to let young players develop and get their feet underneath them at the major league level. Bringing in veteran talent to push that young talent to the back will not help the team in coming years.
The guys I’m talking about pushing down the depth chart are Gio Gonzalez and Nomar Mazara. Maybe that last backup IF spot can be filled this way as well.

Want to beef up this team’s attack against RHP and get better defensively at the same time? I do. Go get JBJ.

Want to make absolutely sure that yuckfests like Dylan Covey and Ross Detwiler and Odrisamer Despaigne never make starts for this team ever again? I do. Go get Arrieta or someone else like him.

Want a guy who can legitimately keep the seat warm for Madrigal and provide a legitimate backup option for TA, Moncada, and Madrigal? Go get Jed Lowrie.

Want a guy who can slot in as a 3rd LHP in the bullpen? Go get Jake McGee.

Even getting all 4 of these guys would not go over that $180 range. We plug all the holes without committing any payroll to 2021 and beyond, we get a few prospects for our troubles, and no young players are impacted with regards to playing time.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 01-18-2020, 03:48 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 13,195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRDSR View Post
Since you’ve used the term so often, and on multiple occasions when commenting on my posts, I had to look up “wishcast”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.urb...sting&amp=true

Wishcasting:
A tactic in "journalism" used to promote a story as true simply because the writer wants it to be true.

That’s not what I’m doing. That’s not what anyone on this board is doing, except maybe you. There are legitimate reasons to be positive about the White Sox right now. There are some reasons to be negative. But there are zero reasons to claim “Sox front office sucks”, without more. Or even with more. Which, when we boil it down, is more or less what you’re doing.

I think you promote the White Sox front office as awful simply because you want it to be true. I’m not sure why you want it to be true, but it seems an awful lot like “wishcasting,” according to Urban Dictionary, which seems to be as authoritative a resource on the subject as is available.

So, please, if you’re going to continue with this rhetoric, just call it rhetoric. Or schtick. It is good schtick, I’ll give you that.
Talking about this team’s payroll going up to $180+ like it’s a foregone conclusion is “wishcasting.” Talking about a big free agent add coming in 2021 is “wishcasting.” Talking about Yoan Moncada and Lucas Giolito contract extensions is “wishcasting.” Absolutely none of those things are supported by what we have seen in the past and are seeing in the present.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 01-18-2020, 03:54 AM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 13,195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
You also seem to be under the illusion that if there is any money left in the teams bank accounts at the end of the offseason, the owners are withdrawing it and sticking it under their mattresses or something. It doesn't work that way. That cash stays as an asset for the team and can be spent at any point, like next year when all the young kids have a year of experience under there belts and there are some actual difference-makers available.

If Hahn came out and said that the $30M you'd like them to spend on overpaid vets right now was instead going to be added to the 2021 payroll, would that make you feel better?
Yup, and I would blast them as cheap if they did not do it. Eventually Lucy needs to stop pulling the football away...

So far, it looks like the team has increased the payroll by roughly the same amount as the increase in TV revenue. I don’t consider that to be some sort of revelatory event; I consider that to be a bare minimum.
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 01-18-2020, 10:22 AM
BRDSR BRDSR is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 2,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Talking about this team’s payroll going up to $180+ like it’s a foregone conclusion is “wishcasting.” Talking about a big free agent add coming in 2021 is “wishcasting.” Talking about Yoan Moncada and Lucas Giolito contract extensions is “wishcasting.” Absolutely none of those things are supported by what we have seen in the past and are seeing in the present.
You’re right. If there is one thing the Sox are awful at, its locking up their young players to favorable extensions.

No. Wait. They’re objectively awesome at doing exactly that. In fact, it’s the reason we have Giolito and Moncada!

Good grief. Maybe they will or maybe they won’t with Giolito and Moncada. But if they don’t, it won’t be due to some systemic failure in the organization.

Last edited by BRDSR; 01-18-2020 at 10:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 01-18-2020, 12:54 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 13,195
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRDSR View Post
You’re right. If there is one thing the Sox are awful at, its locking up their young players to favorable extensions.

No. Wait. They’re objectively awesome at doing exactly that. In fact, it’s the reason we have Giolito and Moncada!

Good grief. Maybe they will or maybe they won’t with Giolito and Moncada. But if they don’t, it won’t be due to some systemic failure in the organization.
I didn’t say that losing Giolito and Moncada would be a failure. I said the fact that they make practically nothing right now has left the team in an actionable position with its 2020 payroll, and so far, I have not seen any urgency to spend more money.
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 01-18-2020, 12:58 PM
A. Cavatica A. Cavatica is offline
Chief Skeptic and 2015 Preseason Predictions Contest Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,526
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney View Post
Want to beef up this team’s attack against RHP and get better defensively at the same time? I do. Go get JBJ.

Want to make absolutely sure that yuckfests like Dylan Covey and Ross Detwiler and Odrisamer Despaigne never make starts for this team ever again? I do. Go get Arrieta or someone else like him.

Want a guy who can legitimately keep the seat warm for Madrigal and provide a legitimate backup option for TA, Moncada, and Madrigal? Go get Jed Lowrie.

Want a guy who can slot in as a 3rd LHP in the bullpen? Go get Jake McGee.
While I like the idea of spending some of our extra money this year to buy a prospect, the trick is finding a deal worth making.

JBJ has no upside left, is substantially worse against RHP than Mazara, is no better than Engel against LHP (or defensively), and would be too tempting for Renteria to run out there instead of using the superior platoon option he already has.

Arrieta is probably not available. The Phillies need pitching depth too.

Lowrie is old and coming off a wasted year. Garcia, Mendick and Sanchez (who is still on the market, presumably with a more realistic idea of his value) are all viable major league utilitymen. I don't see the need for Lowrie.

McGee has been bad three out of the last four years. I'd rather use that third lefty spot to audition Flores, Frare, Medeiros, and Schryver...or for a more competent righthanded reliever.

Save the money, and maybe we'll be buyers at the deadline.

Last edited by A. Cavatica; 01-18-2020 at 01:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 7 (1 members and 6 guests)
eriqjaffe
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:24 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.